If I had a fortune telling business and I had people come sit in a normal looking room and I simply closed my eyes and told them their future, I would assume I would be less successful in convincing them I was for real as opposed to having a very mystic type set up with much more ceremony involved such as using oils, maybe humming things, placing objects and candles in certain forms.

Basically the more complex I make it, the more I think they will be invested in it.

This also seems true for ourselves. The more ceremony we put into a religious act the more we are invested into it and convince ourselves to believe it.

More modern churches do it with praise and worship. Using the emotions driven by music and song to reinforce our feeling for something "spiritual". Older churches, temples, ect do it through more physical ceremony such as lighting candles, having alters set in certain ways, arranging temples in certain ways.

I've observed this in every followed religion I have come across. We like to impart "spirituality" in objects. Trinkets we use in ceremony. Be it keeping miniature statues of deities on our window seals to pictures to whatever imparts a feeling of "specialness". For me, as I have removed the emotional baggage from it, watching a Satanist perform a ritual to conjure up a demon I see no different than any other religion trying to communicate with their chosen deity. The ones that use the more complex ceremonies usually also the ones that appear the most strong in that particular faith. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Ceremony sets a more permanent memory into our brains. I think it also convinces our brains that what we are doing must be really important and real.

If you tell kids to say Bloody Mary 3 times and she will appear behind them, they probably will laugh. If you tell them to go into a dark room with a mirror, be alone, light exactly 5 candles, pour some water into a bowl next to the mirror and add some salt and oil, write Bloody Mary on a piece of white paper and put it in that bowl, turn around clockwise 5 times and chant Bloody Mary 3 times then look into the mirror, they will probably take you more seriously to some degree. It's just inherent human nature.

So obviously all places of worship utilize this, pretty much all followers of any faith also utilize it in their daily lives to some extent. More than anything I think it lends to the idea that no religion is really much "truer" than any other if they all can produce the same types of results. But does it lend to rule out spirituality of any kind?

Or could there be some substance to achieving some type of connected spiritual state in our minds, regardless of what name we give it?

I'm not saying, could it be beneficial because of some placebo effect. I'm asking could there actually be something out there we cannot comprehend that we are able to connect to in some way shape or form that benefits us when we do?

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This also seems true for ourselves. The more ceremony we put into a religious act the more we are invested into it and convince ourselves to believe it.

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While this may be true for some, it can hardly be applied universally. When I encounter some sort of hyper-"spiritual" setting I typically run the other way. I am incredibly skeptical of any perceived attempt at manipulation.

Also, most of the churches I have ever attended as an adult had very few "spiritual" objects, scenery, etc. They were modern protestant, non-denominational/or almost non-denominational churches, so that probably isn't all that unusual.

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More modern churches do it with praise and worship. Using the emotions driven by music and song to reinforce our feeling for something "spiritual". Older churches, temples, ect do it through more physical ceremony such as lighting candles, having alters set in certain ways, arranging temples in certain ways.

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That is one perception. Another might be that there is genuine emotion. Sure for some the emotion may be conjured, but for many that the emotion would be there regardless of the accompanying music/instruments.

The most "spiritual" moments of my life (and probably many other people) have come at times that had no accompanying theme song or background music. Those real life moments, and the memory of them are usually what result in the "emotion" during corporate "praise and worship".

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So obviously all places of worship utilize this, pretty much all followers of any faith also utilize it in their daily lives to some extent. More than anything I think it lends to the idea that no religion is really much "truer" than any other if they all can produce the same types of results. But does it lend to rule out spirituality of any kind?

Or could there be some substance to achieving some type of connected spiritual state in our minds, regardless of what name we give it?

I'm not saying, could it be beneficial because of some placebo effect. I'm asking could there actually be something out there we cannot comprehend that we are able to connect to in some way shape or form that benefits us when we do?

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If a person believes that religion is simply a means to an end that results in some sort of moral enlightenment or achievement of some "higher state of being" - then sure it is plausible to believe that no one religion is any "truer" or more effective than the rest. Even quiet meditation on one's life and trajectory can provide those same results.

Almost anyone who attempts to look introspectively with logic, reason, and a bit of empathy can come to the conclusion that most "bad" things are "bad" and most "good" things are "good" and then make excellent "moral" decisions about life and how it should be lived. To ignore that would be asinine. There are many "good" or highly moral atheists in the world.

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While this may be true for some, it can hardly be applied universally. When I encounter some sort of hyper-"spiritual" setting I typically run the other way. I am incredibly skeptical of any perceived attempt at manipulation.

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I would think this is a result of personal experience and not so much a natural tendency.

When you look to eastern type religions of Asia and the like, do you not ever feel some sort of appreciation for the amount of detail, the beauty, the passion in their religious practices that involve ceremony, pageantry ect?

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Sure for some the emotion may be conjured, but for many that the emotion would be there regardless of the accompanying music/instruments

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What I have found is that we have surge of emotions often because of some cue. We learn from a young age that there are "appropriate" times to release massive amounts of emotions we hold. When that cue is offered, many take advantage. Music is often a very easy way to provide that cue, but it also adds to it. Try watching your favorite dramatic movie with the music taken away. Or just watch people attending a concert where emotional music is played. I've been to plenty of both religious and secular instances and I find it hard to see a difference though I can say I did personally feel a difference.

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Almost anyone who attempts to look introspectively with logic, reason, and a bit of empathy can come to the conclusion that most "bad" things are "bad" and most "good" things are "good" and then make excellent "moral" decisions about life and how it should be lived. To ignore that would be asinine. There are many "good" or highly moral atheists in the world.

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Don't really know how morality of atheists came up but I did not intend for any of my post to imply anything about what is more "moral".

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I'm asking could there actually be something out there we cannot comprehend that we are able to connect to in some way shape or form that benefits us when we do?

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Well, obviously I am a believer in this.

To me, this question comes down to who "we" are.

If you believe that your consciousness is nothing more than a sack of dendrites inside your skull, then these feelings are likely just a result of years of evolution, where human beings find comfort in the familiar. Even if this is true, people embrace the use of ritual through meditation, etc., for positive emotional support. Ritual can help with anything from breaking bad habits, to starting new ones, to deepening relationships and so on. So, "religion" can provide some benefits even if we are just tricking our subconscious into doing what our conscious agent wants to achieve.

If you believe that there is something more out there, something that exists outside of our understanding of nature, to connect with that thing, wouldn't part of you have to exist in this "outside" as well? How would you go about understanding this relationship with this other entity and this "outside" of our comprehension, and the part of you that also resides in this "outside"?

It is in our nature to ponder these questions. Men innately have a desire for something more than the experiences of this word. People innately have a strong connection with music and singing.

Quite a few people have put a lot of thought into who this being outside of our comprehension might be, and how we relate to him, with varying results.

Agreed, but I think what I more am getting at is that the ritual in just about every case is obviously fraudulent on the surface when analysed logically. In most cases, the stated intention is to affect some outside source to response, when it really only affects our own personal feelings.

To think that a deity exists so magnificent and beyond our comprehension yet responds to such silly things as, lighting candles, or facing a certain way when you pray, or exact distances of objects in and angles of places of worship, or reciting certain words or chants, or any other nonsense is pretty absurd.

So accepting the axiom that it all is for our own personal, human psyche, is it still a worthy endeavor?

Mankind seemingly has an inherent need for rituals. There use is not found exclusively in the religious realm.

The Rites of Manhood: Man's Need for Ritual

So, if you assume that there is a deity, and that it is possible to connect with him in some way, it is illogical to throw out the way everyone else has ever done it as fraudulent. You are saying it can be done, but no one has figured out how to do it yet?

Assuming that there is no deity, or that there is no possible way to connect to that deity, and accepting our general understanding of our consciousness from a scientific perspective, then yes, ritual can still be a very worthy endeavor.

Our brain works on at least two different levels of systems, System 1, which is our conscious agent that makes decisions, and System 2, which makes decisions without the full attention of your System 1 agent. (arguably, there is a third system, which is completely hidden from us, that does things like control metabolism, etc.) Our behaviors, how we make decisions, how we process information, is based on habits. When a habit forms, the way that the nerves in your brain are connected physically change. You now have a subroutine on how to react in a given small situation, and it takes System 1 attention, or willpower, to prevent that subroutine from completing.

Breaking habits, or starting new habits, or making changes to how you think about things, or think about other people, requires you to literally rewire your brain. Rituals can help you do that. It puts more effort into showing that the change is important. More of your System 1 focus is put into the importance of this rewiring, so more of it happens.

If you are interested in this kind of stuff, David Eagleman has a lot of really good books out there that go into detail, but in an approachable way.

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So, if you assume that there is a deity, and that it is possible to connect with him in some way, it is illogical to throw out the way everyone else has ever done it as fraudulent. You are saying it can be done, but no one has figured out how to do it yet?

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Well if you accept the notion that pretty much all religious believers of various religions get something they deem quite positive from the relationship they believe they have. Seeing as how there is no one single obvious winner in the game of "Which ritual gets the best outcome from the spirit world" one could only assume they are either all equally valid and whatever spirit or spirits are somehow moved by all the trivial things done to "appease, summon, communicate", ect with it/them or the only things all those rituals and set ways of worshipping and communicating with spirits do is affect those doing the rituals minds.

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Assuming that there is no deity, or that there is no possible way to connect to that deity, and accepting our general understanding of our consciousness from a scientific perspective, then yes, ritual can still be a very worthy endeavor.

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I'm specifically addressing ritual with religious purpose. Not any type of social ritual or ceremony such as weddings, graduations, initiations, ect. or even personal rituals like putting on your favorite socks before a sporting event.

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Don't really know how morality of atheists came up but I did not intend for any of my post to imply anything about what is more "moral".

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The majority of the OP was a commentary about how religion and religious practices are a manipulation of human emotion in order to heighten the effect and make it feel more "real". From there you essentially stated that you think all religions are equal, simply based on the similarity of their "results".

It appears as if the question was then: Since religions are all simply different attempts at emotional manipulation and all produce the same types of "results", does that mean all spirituality is invalid?

You then ask if there is some substance to connecting to a "spiritual state in our minds" and if that provides any "benefits".

I assumed the "results" & "benefits" you refer to are morals - simply because most people see the only value religion adds to society is a set of morals to keep the simple & savage people in line. If that was an incorrect assumption - I apologize.

If morals are indeed the "results" and "benefits" you were referring to, then your answers would be Yes and No.

Yes - if religion is what you said, then the fact that moral atheists exist would prove that "spirituality" is in fact invalid - because it is possible to attain the desired "results" and "benefits" without "spirituality".

No - based on the above conclusion, there is no "substance" in trying to connect to a "spiritual" state of mind and therefore no benefits, simply because those same benefits can be realized without religion (again see moral atheist as proof).

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I assumed the "results" & "benefits" you refer to are morals - simply because most people see the only value religion adds to society is a set of morals to keep the simple & savage people in line. If that was an incorrect assumption - I apologize.

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Ya, that's not what I was getting at at all. Morality can jump off a cliff as far as this convo is concerned. This is about benefits of a personal spiritual relationship with a higher power for the person themselves.

Then what are some examples of the benefits you are referring to?

Anything that is self attributable. Sense of well being. Sense of purpose. Sense of connectivity to the universe. Sense of self worth. Sense of healing. Sense of belonging. Since of being connected to something bigger than any thing or person on earth.

So, ceremony does not "effect" belief, in that it is not the ceremony that creates the belief (sorry for the grammar pun here, but the statement is true).

However, I do think that ceremony does affect belief for all of the reasons I listed above.

As for the question of, does believing in a deity achieve some good for the individual, even if the deity is made up? It depends on the person and the value system, but for the majority of people, I think that this is clearly the case.

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in that it is not the ceremony that creates the belief

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I believe a lot of the time it does.

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Yes - if religion is what you said, then the fact that moral atheists exist would prove that "spirituality" is in fact invalid - because it is possible to attain the desired "results" and "benefits" without "spirituality".

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Your logic is rather flawed, here. Does the existence of naturally gifted athletes preclude the benefits of working out or practicing?

Of course not.

Also, I've never met a single person, atheist or otherwise, who couldn't use a little encouragement on staying on a moral path of life. You falsely present morality as this obvious and easily attainable thing. However, sometimes the "right" thing to do is the most difficult thing to accomplish. The path where we have to put our own ego/self aside for the betterment of others.

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in that it is not the ceremony that creates the belief

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I believe a lot of the time it does.

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I think there is probably some truth to this. I imagine it has something to do with being more emotionally and mentally invested in an idea. Now it may not be able to create a belief where none previously existed but could potentially move a belief from cursory wonder to full buy in. I think you can see this affect outside of religion to. It's why every year when I start going through my "ceremonies" prepping for aggie football season and games I am able to convince myself that this will be the year that we win it all, despite having no historical evidence to support that belief. This year however i have ditched those ceremonies and feel i have a much more realistic outlook for our season...

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This year however i have ditched those ceremonies and feel i have a much more realistic outlook for our season...

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Don't lie to us.

You may be as jaded as any Aggie out there, but when we went up 24-9 and were on the verge of blowing UCLA out you know you had visions of a certain crystal football.

Of course, the last 6 minutes of the fourth quarter should have brought those dreams to a halt until this weekend.

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Of course, the last 6 minutes of the fourth quarter should have brought those dreams to a halt until this weekend.

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Our faith was tested brothers and sisters.

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in that it is not the ceremony that creates the belief

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I believe a lot of the time it does.

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I don't. People don't believe in a God because the Sunday morning incense smells so good. The innate human need for "something more" creates a condition where a deity creator of the universe makes sense.

I argue that it is this innate condition that is the primary reason for the existence of religion. All of the different religions are different ways of approaching this same issue.

I have a higher regard for the average human than to think that ceremony or rituals are the reason for the belief in a deity. Sure, they are emotional and cognitive support to remind us the importance of the priorities that we have ascribed to. This is needed, because we are selfish, have short attention spans, and depressing little willpower. I subscribe that the genesis of belief is more about that innate cognitive need to make sense of the world than it is the impact of emotional pleas we get from ceremony. The latter supports the former, and not vice versa.

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I have a higher regard for the average human than to think that ceremony or rituals are the reason for the belief in a deity. Sure, they are emotional and cognitive support to remind us the importance of the priorities that we have ascribed to. This is needed, because we are selfish, have short attention spans, and depressing little willpower.

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Not necessarily belief that there is a deity or higher power in general, but more so in the specific belief of a defined religion. Be it voodoo, Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, Satanism, ect. Sure they all have compelling literature and dogma that draw people in further but I think a lot of the initial faith is derived in the rituals and ceremony.

Think about some aboriginal tribe members walking into a temple of a different religion. In one scenario it's just a nice building with a pulpit and some nice decorations where the preacher preaches and tries to convince them of his religious beliefs. In another scenario its an elaborate building with an alter surrounded by lots of fancy statues, trinkets, candles, ect. The preacher is dressed in a very visually impressive outfit with a tall hat and he does all types of ceremonial things while chanting and praying. Lighting candles, waving smokey lanterns around, ect. I think the tribe members would be much more inclined to buy into the beliefs of the preacher with lots of visually engaging ceremony. And as those tribe members start to participate in the ceremony in the future, they more quickly buy into full belief into that religion.

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I think the tribe members would be much more inclined to buy into the beliefs of the preacher with lots of visually engaging ceremony.

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Why?

I would think that the religion that offers explanations about the nature of man and morals that better aligns with the person's beliefs would win out, regardless of ceremony.

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I would think that the religion that offers explanations about the nature of man and morals that better aligns with the person's beliefs would win out, regardless of ceremony.

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Any made up god can tell you that you need to be good to each other. Religion can be something that you intellectually arrive at over time but it takes a long time to arrive at a true belief. Because all you are doing is thinking "ok, that makes sense to me, I think that god probably could exist." Then as more things make sense you believe it more. But the biggest factors in belief is what we see. Lots of people see good things happening in their life after taking on certain religious beliefs and behaviours and through confirmation bias convince themselves that it is because they are pleasing the god they believe in and being rewarded. So in their perception they are seeing evidence. However that takes time. With ceremony, it is not visual evidence but it is visual input. It gives our brains something that we can see when we think we are interacting with a deity. It's just something evolution has bred into us.

Why do a lot of dogs spin around several times before laying down even when there is no grass or foliage to trample down? It's just built in instinct that they feel they need to do before laying down to sleep. It's a ceremony if you will, that tells them ok it's time to sleep. It's built into our psyche that we must do action to get results. That's why praying seems more powerful to many people who do ceremonial things along with it. Lighting candles, sending off flying lanterns, sitting in a marked off circle with geometrically placed items, ect. All these things convince us that we are actually doing something real.

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All these things convince us that we are actually doing something real.

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Agree that ceremony heightens the importance of the activity.

We will agree to disagree that it is the ceremony that creates the belief.

If this was the most important part of religion, there would be no protestant movement with boring looking churches and very little pomp during worship assemblies.

It always surprises me how many people want to de-emphasize the importance of cognitive analysis about the universe and God when it comes to religious belief systems.

Mainly because there are many highly intelligent people in all major religions and not so major religions. Any good religion has a great take on the universe than can be debated.

The problem is there is no intellectually honest way to prove or disprove any of these religions, or at least their beliefs about god.

Can you make a logically sound argument to disprove reincarnation?

Belief in religion mostly comes down to confirmation bias. We arrive at a decision to believe in a certain religion then we go on from there confirming false positives in our minds that further digs us into the belief, but the most effective are the visual aspects and ceremony provides a lot of that.

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Belief in religion mostly comes down to confirmation bias. We arrive at a decision to believe in a certain religion then we go on from there confirming false positives in our minds that further digs us into the belief, but the most effective are the visual aspects and ceremony provides a lot of that.

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Again, I strongly disagree with the bolded part.

For disbelief. That is, no longer believing in a religion. I will give you that it is more often than not a cognitive logic based cause.

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For disbelief. That is, no longer believing in a religion. I will give you that it is more often than not a cognitive logic based cause.

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So, I guess you yourself are not so human that you would be subject to confirmation bias, and that your own experiences wouldn't influence your opinion on how or why other people come to different conclusions than you regarding religious issues.

When it comes to disbelief, it has to be rational thinking, because that is how it worked for you.

When it comes to belief, it has to be emotional symbolism, because that is how you were deceived as a youth.

YMMNV.

N = not.

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Lots of people stop believing for emotional reasons too. The "How could God do this to me" types. I don't really know any people who started believing for logical reasons though. The people I know who feel their faith is logically supported all believed before they looked at Christianity with a more analytic eye.

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That is probably correct for people raised in the church. Your belief starts because you believe what your parents tell you. I wouldn't say that this is an emotional-based belief caused by visual symbolism or ceremony or whatnot. However, at some point, we all grow up and cast an analytical eye on why we believe what we believe. It happens to every single healthy person by the time that they are 30. This idea that ceremony will prevent people from ever performing this self-examination is pure poppycock, and it takes a very dismissive view of the intellect of people who believe in Christianity.

As for people that were not raised in the church, I find it implausible that a person would enter into a church, see the ceremony, and decide that this is what they wanted to give their life to. Mid-life converts are more likely to be people that were completely broken, destroyed by their own selfishness and reckless behavior, who in their despair saw the inner joy of people who live lives of love. It it that inner joy that attracts broken people, not the candles at the entrance to the church.

"Inner joy" suggests a non-analytic answer to the question of belief. I don't think anyone is saying ceremony alone caused or maintains belief. Rather that ceremony triggers certain impulses and emotions that guide people in their decision-making process.

I think that ceremony is such an instinctual part of our evolution as animals that it gives a feeling that it "just feels right" and it helps convince our intellect that what we are doing really matters and is really doing something as opposed to doing strange chants and pretty placements of trinkets for some imagined entity or an entity that could care less that you are waving smoke around and making a nice smelling room.

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"Inner joy" suggests a non-analytic answer to the question of belief.

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Hogwash. First off, you would have to completely dismiss philosophy in general as non-analytical to arrive at that answer. Second, I could see a group of people that seem to have it all together, Christian or not, and compare it to all my life and the life of all my methhead junky friends, and decide that changing my life perspective seems like a good idea. This decision would have a lot to do with inner joy, and would be completely rational.

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I think that ceremony is such an instinctual part of our evolution as animals that it gives a feeling that it "just feels right" and it helps convince our intellect that what we are doing really matters and is really doing something as opposed to doing strange chants and pretty placements of trinkets for some imagined entity or an entity that could care less that you are waving smoke around and making a nice smelling room.

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Conceded, in a way, I guess.

If you asked the average Christian why it is important to go to Sunday service, they will tell you that it is not about making God happy, it is about reinforcing the importance of Godly principles, and edifying eachother and encouraging eachother in that respect. God doesn't need our attendance at service. The service is completely about reinforcement that principles are important. The symbolism and ceremony helps us remember that these things are important.

So, I would say that ceremony does more to reinforce discipline than it does belief.

To imagine that ceremony has the power to deceive your intellect into believing something that it would not otherwise believe does not square with my experience, at all.

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So, I would say that ceremony does more to reinforce discipline than it does belief.

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So let's take the personal aspect out of it for you and address this issue with other religions. Say a those in witchcraft or Satanism. They have very specific rituals with very detailed instructions on how to carry out ceremony. Exact placement of religious artefacts and other items, exact chants, rules on when and were to carry out the ceremonies, ect.

These are people that are just as convinced of their beliefs as Christians or any other large religion. Do you think they were at all drawn in by the ceremony and how detailed and complex they are? Do you think it plays any part in strengthening the faith of those followers who might otherwise question how valid their beliefs are?

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"Inner joy" suggests a non-analytic answer to the question of belief.

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Hogwash. First off, you would have to completely dismiss philosophy in general as non-analytical to arrive at that answer. Second, I could see a group of people that seem to have it all together, Christian or not, and compare it to all my life and the life of all my methhead junky friends, and decide that changing my life perspective seems like a good idea. This decision would have a lot to do with inner joy, and would be completely rational.

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The decision would have a lot to do with outward appearance of difference. How that manifests itself may be rational or non-rational depending on the method. "Inner joy" is a non-rational manifestation.