Hell has frozen over, and I am actively transitioning out of the Roman Catholic Church and into the Byzantine Catholic Church, one of the Eastern Churches.

My studies of the patristics and early Christianity have led me through a long and arduous journey of questioning my belief system, and rethinking some of the Scholastic's impact on Roman Catholic spirituality. I am at the point where I believe Orthodox spirituality and understanding and liturgy are more authentic than that of the Western Church.

I believe the sui iurus Churches led by Bishops, headed by the Bishop of Rome (in a completely executive but more collegial role than understood by some Catholics) more resembles the Church of the patristics as intended by Christ. I am still obviously Catholic, proudly Catholic but now feel that Ive settled some of the nagging feelings that have bothered me with some of the Roman Catholic small-d doctrines and norms.

I feel for you. My heart is breaking for the Catholic Church that I grew up in. My reasons may be different from yours but my days of being a part of it are nearing an end also.

Just kidding.

I wish you the best and know you are still home. I shall drink to you tonight!

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I feel for you. My heart is breaking for the Catholic Church that I grew up in. My reasons may be different from yours but my days of being a part of it are nearing an end also.

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I am quite sure the reasons youre thinking of played not a small role in my decision as well.

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Hell has frozen over, and I am actively transitioning out of the Roman Catholic Church and into the Byzantine Catholic Church, one of the Eastern Churches.

My studies of the patristics and early Christianity have led me through a long and arduous journey of questioning my belief system, and rethinking some of the Scholastic's impact on Roman Catholic spirituality. I am at the point where I believe Orthodox spirituality and understanding and liturgy are more authentic than that of the Western Church.

I believe the sui iurus Churches led by Bishops, headed by the Bishop of Rome (in a completely executive but more collegial role than understood by some Catholics) more resembles the Church of the patristics as intended by Christ. I am still obviously Catholic, proudly Catholic but now feel that Ive settled some of the nagging feelings that have bothered me with some of the Roman Catholic small-d doctrines and norms.

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First of all, you are leaving one Lung of the Church to enter the other Lung - we are one in ALL.

Unlike the Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox, you still are submissive and subjugate your self to His Vicar and you still believe the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND the Son.

I pray your journey end at this new and ancient Liturgy as to step out any further from Rome will surely put your soul in jepordy.

God's speed my new friend and may St. Athenasious and St. John Chrysostom pray for you.

_89

Thank you for your prayers, rest assured I can never the Petrine seat

What creed do they say in the Byzantine church?

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What creed do they say in the Byzantine church?

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the same one you say

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you still believe the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father AND the Son.

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So...Protestant is ahead of Orthodox in the pecking order of least apostate options?

Yeah I thought that was pretty interesting myself, but I didn't figure to jump in...

So... no filioque?

So... are we in communion?

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What creed do they say in the Byzantine church?

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the same one you say

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Pin hole leak in the dam. You'll be a come as you are, I Can Only Imagine singing, independent non-denominationalist in a matter of months.

Some Byzantine Catholic friends of mine often commune with an Orthodox community near them. They live in Waco, and St. Basil's in Irving is a bit of a drive for them on a weekly basis. Thus, they have consulted with their priest at St. Basil's and the priest at the local Orthodox Church, and this accommodation has been made.

Is it full communion? No. But I like the goodwill between both communities in this case, and it gives me hope towards the healing of our great schism.

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Is this real life?

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He's still Catholic. More on the Byzantines here: http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/about-us-mainmenu-60/about-byzantines-mainmenu-62

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So... no filioque?

So... are we in communion?

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unfortunately no, not yet; the sole issue being papal primacy. The Byzantine Catholic Church does consider the Orthodox Church to be their mother church from which they are currently separated from; although as mentioned above relationships are typically very good between the ByzCath and the Orthodox. I think Byzantine Catholic autonomy is a great example of how we all Eastern and Western Catholic Churches (Orthodox included) can be reunited.

The spirituality of the Eastern Catholic Churches is in my opinion a perfect blend of East and West; leaving some of the rigidity of the West; while shunning some of the aspects of divorce and contraception I'm really not comfortable with in the East (plus the whole elephant in the room of the Pope).

I can say that when I think of the Church that Christ created; I see bishops headed by the Bishop of Rome; the sacraments, and the spirituality of the Patristics, no college of cardinals, no mountains of canon law; just our united system of beliefs, and our united participation in the sacraments.

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First of all, you are leaving one Lung of the Church to enter the other Lung - we are one in ALL.

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Some of us believe that most Christian sects subscribe to this. I think we are making this much harder than it has to be.

edit: I typed rambling gibberish.

So how much of this has to do with you disagreeing with statements or policies of the current pope?

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So how much of this has to do with you disagreeing with statements or policies of the current pope?

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none, it also wouldn't make much sense to remain in the Catholic Church if I had an issue with the Pope; the Eastern Catholic Churches are every bit as Catholic as the Roman Catholic Church.

So what if the pope told the eastern churches to join the Roman Catholic church?

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So what if the pope told the eastern churches to join the Roman Catholic church?

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That would be like asking South America to join North America. They are both Catholic; some are in the East, some are in the West. "Roman Catholic" is an easy descriptor, it's not an official title; the Catholic Church doesn't even really refer to itself as Roman.

Well, kinda. Pope could force change the creed (again). The whole creed thing confuses the heck out of me.

So then why does it matter so much to you that you change your moniker?

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Well, kinda. Pope could force change the creed (again). The whole creed thing confuses the heck out of me.

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It's confusing; it's also a terrible reason to delay reunion.

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So then why does it matter so much to you that you change your moniker?

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I'm not necessarily changing my moniker; I'm Catholic; my spirituality now aligns more with the Eastern Church than the Western, and I will be attending a Byzantine Catholic Church most of the time. It's still fairly monumental for me as I've been a Roman Catholic my whole life.

I do not agree, obviously. St Photios said that everything else can basically be worked out in time. The Filioque represents a change to the Trinitarian model that we cannot agree with. I mean, it's basically the cause of the schism, it was re-debated in Constantinople after the sack by the Latins (between Gregory II and Beccus) and touched again at the Council of Florence by St Mark of Ephesus among others. I think the recent "gloss over it" position is wishful thinking or ignorance at best, willful cognitive dissonance in the name of union at worst.

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The Filioque represents a change to the Trinitarian model that we cannot agree with. I mean, it's basically the cause of the schism,

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I'll be honest: this seems pretty nonsensical to create a schism over there. What' makes much more sense is that issue of papal supremacy, and this is thrown in as a doctrinal thing so it doesn't look a simple power struggle.

See, I think that if you change the word you change the image. There's a risk in enumerating these things. Look at how carefully the fathers at Nicaea debated homoousia.

Even in your formulation here - no. The Father is the monarch and sole cause of the trinity in our understanding. The generation of the son and procession is solely from the father, not from a common essence. This formula of the common essence producing the persons is the root of the disagreement. The sending of the spirit is the only time the Fathers use the formulation "through the son".

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I'll be honest: this seems pretty nonsensical to create a schism over there. What' makes much more sense is that issue of papal supremacy, and this is thrown in as a doctrinal thing so it doesn't look a simple power struggle.

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It takes a great deal of hubris to suggest that hundreds of years of pious monks, priests, bishops, and laity used this as a "doctrinal thing" to cover earthly power struggles.

It seems nonsensical because, frankly, most modern faiths don't understand or acknowledge the importance of the symbol of faith, or the theology it expresses. Orthodoxy is sometimes called the faith of the councils - and the output of the councils are doctrinal statements like the symbol of faith. Even the title of symbol versus creed shows a distinction: the symbol represents the actuality of our faith, as opposed to a statement or list of beliefs. To us, it matters.

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Sure, no argument. The generation of the son and procession is solely from the father; the generation of the holy spirit is solely from the father and processes and is poured out by the father through the son.

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the last bit is he problem. Procession is from be Father. Not through the Son. And even your statement here is a significant departure from the historical Latin formulation, which said that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the son as from a common essence.

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I'll be honest: this seems pretty nonsensical to create a schism over there. What' makes much more sense is that issue of papal supremacy, and this is thrown in as a doctrinal thing so it doesn't look a simple power struggle.

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It takes a great deal of hubris to suggest that hundreds of years of pious monks, priests, bishops, and laity used this as a "doctrinal thing" to cover earthly power struggles.

It seems nonsensical because, frankly, most modern faiths don't understand or acknowledge the importance of the symbol of faith, or the theology it expresses. Orthodoxy is sometimes called the faith of the councils - and the output of the councils are doctrinal statements like the symbol of faith. Even the title of symbol versus creed shows a distinction: the symbol represents the actuality of our faith, as opposed to a statement or list of beliefs. To us, it matters.

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I look at it like this, let's say a council says "The Creed will only be in Greek, forever and always. Anathema on anyone who changes the Creed into a different language". Years later as the faith has spread and spread; the creed starts being changed into Latin, or Mandarin, or Russian, or Slavic or whatever. The Pope, sensing that his role as shepherd of the flock says "Okay, i declare it is okay for the creed to be translated into different languages", the Creed itself wouldn't have changed; just the language it was written and professed in.