Is it possible to believe in Evolution and in God?

17,939 Views | 258 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by John Maplethorpe
Joseph Parrish
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AG
I just want your take.

Edit: I'll expand. I don't see how people take a hardline stance that one can't exist without the other. I don't believe every story in the bible, but that doesn't make me a non-believer. I see these posts from extreme religious groups that think it's one way or the other, and I just laugh at it because there is so much evidence to support the theory of evolution.

Don't hang me for this, but I don't think the earth was created in 6 days. I work in oil and gas, so I have a slight geology background that says the earth is much older. I also believe in evolution and don't think Adam and Eve were the first humans.
jkag89
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Many people do, so the obvious answer is yes.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
your thread, your rules. . . but, if I can make a suggestion: Perhaps consider changing the question to:

Is it possible to believe in an unguided and purely natural evolution and a purely natural abiogenesis and to believe in God.

Most believers here subscribe to evolution, but still inject the divine in either creation of life or in guidance of the evolutionary process.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
I agree with kurt. It seems weird to say "I believe in evolution". It's more like, "the available physical evidence strongly supports the theory of evolution". You could say "I believe evolution occurred by happenstance", but that's not exactly the same thing.

But yes. I believe in God, and I agree that the theory of evolution is the best explanation for biodiversity we have based on current physical evidence.
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Joseph Parrish
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AG
quote:
your thread, your rules. . . but, if I can make a suggestion: Perhaps consider changing the question to:

Is it possible to believe in an unguided and purely natural evolution and a purely natural abiogenesis and to believe in God.

Most believers here subscribe to evolution, but still inject the divine in either creation of life or in guidance of the evolutionary process.
It won't let me change the title after somebody has responded. Let's take out the word "unguided" in your response. Natural evolution doesn't mean there wasn't an original creator in the first place. Again, I'm just baffled by the hardliners that say it's absolutely one way or the other.
chuckd
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AG

quote:
Natural evolution doesn't mean there wasn't an original creator in the first place.
What is the theory here? God wound up a machine, turned it on, and walked away? Interesting perspective, but I see no evidence in Scripture.

Also, it would be helpful for everyone here to let us know what exactly evolution is and what exactly believing in God is.
Joseph Parrish
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AG
quote:

quote:
Natural evolution doesn't mean there wasn't an original creator in the first place.
What is the theory here? God wound up a machine, turned it on, and walked away? Interesting perspective, but I see no evidence in Scripture.
That's not the point I'm making. I'm not saying there isn't a god to guide you here. I'm saying that even in an extreme pro-evolution stance, there can still be a creator.
AggieRain
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AG
Deism is an example of belief in God as well as unguided evolution. As a Christian, I had no problems reconciling unguided evolution to belief in God either. Maybe that wasn't towing the company line, but it never burdened my conscience.
chuckd
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AG
quote:
quote:

quote:
Natural evolution doesn't mean there wasn't an original creator in the first place.
What is the theory here? God wound up a machine, turned it on, and walked away? Interesting perspective, but I see no evidence in Scripture.
That's not the point I'm making. I'm not saying there isn't a god to guide you here. I'm saying that even in an extreme pro-evolution stance, there can still be a creator.
Again, what is the theory? What is the relationship between creator and creation? What is God? What is evolution?

You ask: Is it possible to believe in evolution and in God? It's a loaded question.
Joseph Parrish
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:

quote:
Natural evolution doesn't mean there wasn't an original creator in the first place.
What is the theory here? God wound up a machine, turned it on, and walked away? Interesting perspective, but I see no evidence in Scripture.
That's not the point I'm making. I'm not saying there isn't a god to guide you here. I'm saying that even in an extreme pro-evolution stance, there can still be a creator.
Again, what is the theory? What is the relationship between creator and creation? What is God? What is evolution?

You ask: Is it possible to believe in evolution and in God? It's a loaded question.
I'm not really trying to put a theory out there. I'm more interested in a discussion as to why some people can't see that both can exist...like this Josh Feuerstein guy that does all the facebook posts. There's even an HBO documentary about a group in Oklahoma that scoffs at the idea of evolution.
chuckd
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AG

quote:
I'm not really trying to put a theory out there. I'm more interested in a discussion as to why some people can't see that both can exist.
Is it possible to believe in yakamor and in pondamanon?

Your first question would be: what is yakamor? What is pondamanon?

Why can't you see that both yakamor and pondamanon both can exist?

Obviously a bad example because people have some concept of evolution and God, but it matters what that concept is to even begin to answer your question. Is God the unmoved mover? Is evolution a completely unguided, natural process? Then the answer to your question is no since those two concepts are entirely incompatible.
Joseph Parrish
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quote:

quote:
I'm not really trying to put a theory out there. I'm more interested in a discussion as to why some people can't see that both can exist.
Is it possible to believe in yakamor and in pondamanon?

Your first question would be: what is yakamor? What is pondamanon?

Why can't you see that both yakamor and pondamanon both can exist?

Obviously a bad example because people have some concept of evolution and God, but it matters what that concept is to even begin to answer your question. Is God the unmoved mover? Is evolution a completely unguided, natural process? Then the answer to your question is no since those two concepts are entirely incompatible.
I'm not interested in responses from people that don't have a concept of either. If somebody doesn't have a stance, then I don't care for their input.
Star Wars Memes Only
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I think the point people are making, Joseph, is that your initial question is so vague that it can't be answered in a meaningful way without you clarifying some things.
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
I think the point people are making, Joseph, is that your initial question is so vague that it can't be answered in a meaningful way without you clarifying some things.
Then let's go with this as the question.

Why do some extreme religious groups fail to recognize the possibility that evolution is real? And what are your thoughts.
Star Wars Memes Only
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quote:
Why do some extreme religious groups fail to recognize the possibility that evolution is real? And what are your thoughts.

Because it conflicts with their dogma. For instance, evolution is obviously incompatible with a literal interpretation of Genesis.
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
quote:
Why do some extreme religious groups fail to recognize the possibility that evolution is real? And what are your thoughts.

Because it conflicts with their dogma. For instance, evolution is obviously incompatible with a literal interpretation of Genesis.
Obviously they view it as unquestionably true, but is it crazy to think that some stories in the bible may not have happened as written. Again, this is where evolution creates a conflict.
chuckd
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quote:
Obviously they view it as unquestionably true, but is it crazy to think that some stories in the bible may not have happened as written. Again, this is where evolution creates a conflict.
From a purely naturalistic perspective, I'd say it's crazy to think that any story in the Bible may have happened as written.
Joseph Parrish
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Agreed, but that doesn't make everyone that believes in evolution a non believer like some would paint it.
kurt vonnegut
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That's not the point I'm making. I'm not saying there isn't a god to guide you here. I'm saying that even in an extreme pro-evolution stance, there can still be a creator.

After I left the Catholic church is '99, I had a brief affair with this type of deism. I believed in a supernatural Creator, but rejected the God and gods described in religion for a number of reasons. I believed that evolution best explained diversification of life. This affair was short because I think the very nature of our understanding raises some difficult questions - and the key, I think, is in the very word 'unguided' that you struck out.

Lets say that someone believes in evolution. Was this evolution guided by God or was it not guided? If it was guided by God, then the process is not entirely natural. It stands to reason that if God meant for human beings to exist by manipulating evolutionary processes, then we have some purpose, some meaning beyond what meaning we give to our own lives. It is also logical (maybe) that an intervening God would reveal itself to us to explain what purpose there is to our lives. It seems to me that it is difficult to believe in a guided form of evolution and not believe in a personal God - the type that we see in religions.

However, if our evolution is not guided and the creation of life on Earth was not sparked intentionally by the divine, where does this leave humans? If we are a product of chance, then do we have any cosmic or supernatural significance? Even if God exists, it is no more necessary that God cares about our species than it is necessary that God cares about the rocks and gas clouds floating in space. If God had no hand in intentionally creating our species, what is the likelihood that God would reveal himself to us? Do you feel inclined to reveal yourself to the bacteria living under your foot?

Yes, I think you can believe in God and in evolution. But if your definition of evolution is purely scientific and material, then 13.7B years of galactic evolution and 3.5B years of DNA based evolution for the purposes of creating a highly imperfectly evolved species to be the momentary masters of a spec of dust on a spec of dust on a spec of dust for a blink of an eye is ridiculous. This is why, I think, you have a very hard time finding a theist who believes in a purely scientific, unguided, natural, and un-intentional evolutionary process.

Once you inject God into the equation and say that evolution was guided by the divine, you and I are no longer using the same definition of 'evolution'. My evolution is a scientific theory. If yours requires God to work, it is not a scientific theory.

I think I see where you are coming from and I do believe that I was in your shoes at one point in time. I think that it is an unstable position though - the version of evolution you subscribe to or find compelling questions the nature of that position in very different ways.
chuckd
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quote:
Agreed, but that doesn't make everyone that believes in evolution a non believer like some would paint it.
It depends. Everyone who believes in unguided, natural evolution cannot be a believer in the unmoved mover. They are incompatible concepts.
Joseph Parrish
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Let me be clear here. I just struck out the word unguided to provide the most extreme view point. I am not saying that's what I subscribe to at all. What I don't understand.is when a religious group denies evolution entirely...with or without intervention from god.
chuckd
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Let me be clear here. I just struck out the word unguided to provide the most extreme view point. I am not saying that's what I subscribe to at all. What I don't understand.is when a religious group denies evolution entirely...with or without intervention from god.
Because Genesis 1-2 (read as a narrative) teaches all created order was completed in 6 days by the word of God.
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
quote:
Let me be clear here. I just struck out the word unguided to provide the most extreme view point. I am not saying that's what I subscribe to at all. What I don't understand.is when a religious group denies evolution entirely...with or without intervention from god.
Because Genesis 1-2 (read as a narrative) teaches all created order was completed in 6 days by the word of God.
Again this is something I've stated I have an issue with. If mankind was created on the 6th day, then we would exist with every other species ever found in any fossils that have ever been dug up. A difference of 6 days isn't enough to separate those fossils.

Obviously, I think it took more than 6 days.
kurt vonnegut
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Let me be clear here. I just struck out the word unguided to provide the most extreme view point. I am not saying that's what I subscribe to at all. What I don't understand.is when a religious group denies evolution entirely...with or without intervention from god.

Like Chuck said, to deny evolution entirely is willful ignorance of the associated science. Some people's beliefs are so unshakable that they would rather believe that scientists buried dinosaur bones themselves to undermine religion than to accept that a part of their unshakable, rigid, literal word of God may be flawed. This scares the *** out of me. In the words of the real KV:

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."

Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night
kurt vonnegut
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also, I'm glad that you don't subscribe to the 6000 year old, no evolution nonsense.
Zobel
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As a counterpoint Kurt, I don't think it necessarily requires a person who believes in even a very specific theology of Christianity to preclude other manifestations of God to other aspects of creation. How do you know God doesn't reveal himself to those bacteria, too? And to everything in the cosmos, as it were?

Put another way, why would belief in Christ for Humans require disbelief in Jupiter Christ for the hypothetical Jovians?
kurt vonnegut
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As a counterpoint Kurt, I don't think it necessarily requires a person who believes in even a very specific theology of Christianity to preclude other manifestations of God to other aspects of creation. How do you know God doesn't reveal himself to those bacteria, too? And to everything in the cosmos, as it were?

Put another way, why would belief in Christ for Humans require disbelief in Jupiter Christ for the hypothetical Jovians?


It wouldn't, but it seems enormously irrational, based solely on Christian doctrine, to hold a positive belief that God reveals himself to the bacteria or the Jovians. And I'm not positive why your post is a counter to mine . . . But that's probably the 3 Moscow mules doing their thing. It's my 35th birthday - I'm half dead. Gotta celebrate.
Zobel
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I didn't say I thought that was the case, at least not stated as such. But I don't see why it's any more or less rational than the opposite (i.e. A God that reveals to nothing). In fact, now that I think about it, it kind of seems that an infinitely revealing God makes an equal amount of sense as a non-revealing God.
Sapper Redux
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quote:
quote:
Agreed, but that doesn't make everyone that believes in evolution a non believer like some would paint it.
It depends. Everyone who believes in unguided, natural evolution cannot be a believer in the unmoved mover. They are incompatible concepts.


You absolutely could believe in a God that created the universe without dictating the development of life.
B-1 83
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How long are God's "days"?
Does anyone honestly believe the the Lord God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen, marks "days" based on the rotation of one planet around one of billions of stars? Arrogance at its finest.

What did God do on the "eighth" day?
FlyFish95
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If you believe the Genesis 1 story is just an allegory and not intended to be interpreted literally, then yes, it's entirely possible.
PA24
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If you believe oil comes from dead plants found 40000' under the ground, explain how we continue to use millions and millions of barrels/day and have for decades and never run out. Every yr., more crude is found as well as coal.



https://youtube/Ky3d-mEXoVM


Evolution is a fraud
Joseph Parrish
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Arrogance at its finest.

No need for this comment.
Joseph Parrish
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AG
quote:
If you believe oil comes from dead plants found 40000' under the ground, explain how we continue to use millions and millions of barrels/day and have for decades and never run out. Every yr., more crude is found as well as coal.



https://youtube/Ky3d-mEXoVM


Evolution is a fraud

There are plenty of hydrocarbons in the ground. More gets found over time because technology improves, the cost is high enough to make more projects viable. Your link doesn't work btw.
kurt vonnegut
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AG
quote:
How long are God's "days"?
Does anyone honestly believe the the Lord God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things seen and unseen, marks "days" based on the rotation of one planet around one of billions of stars? Arrogance at its finest.

What did God do on the "eighth" day?

Or maybe the Abrahamic God is man made and the authors of his life's work reveal their ignorance of reality on page one.
 
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