I already gave you Moses and the disciples but they don't count apparently.
What would it take?
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Last: 8 yr ago by MrMeek
No it's exactly what you are talking about as you've asserted that its somehow important that the existence of god be a matter of faith rather than knowledge. This very claim is inconsistent with your own religion, let alone all others.
There is no logical, theological, or any other requirement that man approach the question of god out of ignorance.
There is no logical, theological, or any other requirement that man approach the question of god out of ignorance.
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No it's exactly what you are talking about as you've asserted that its somehow important that the existence of god be a matter of faith rather than knowledge. This very claim is inconsistent with your own religion, let alone all others.
There is no logical, theological, or any other requirement that man approach the question of god out of ignorance.
Nowhere am I saying that man approach the question of God out of ignorance. I'm saying that everyone is given the opportunity to either believe in the existence of God or not, and for a person to wonder why God doesn't forcefully make him believe in His existence would be to circumvent God-given free will.
quote:you are actually demanding it as you consider possessing such knowledge a determent to free will (I'm not sure why).
Nowhere am I saying that man approach the question of God out of ignorance.
quote:And my point is that this is an absurd belief incompatible with your own faith tradition. Did adam have free will? Did eve, did moses, did abraham, did satan, did any character of note who saw miracles and angels and even god himself have free will? How could they choose to believe when they know? There was no forcing here. God didn't force it, any more than a teacher forces a child to believe two and two make four. They merely convince you that it's the case. Does it violate your free will for me to teach you? To show you?
I'm saying that everyone is given the opportunity to either believe in the existence of God or not, and for a person to wonder why God doesn't forcefully make him believe in His existence would be to circumvent God-given free will.
We have the opportunity to believe in ANYTHING or not to the limited extent that belief is a choice. We are often afforded the luxury of knowledge making the "choice" both trivial, and not a choice at all, in no way making us less "free". Free will is about choices of action, knowledge doesn't incumber free will, it informs and enriches it. We choose to follow god or not, we choose to sin or not, we choose to love or not. Knowing of god doesn't inhibit our choices, but rather makes us more cognizant of the results of our choices and informs us of the course of action with results most closely matching our own desires.
we are able to follow our whims, passions, and preferences as we see fit but none among us possess the ability to believe the moon is made of cheese. Being pounded over the head with facts our whole lives indicating this isn't true simply doesn't allow us to really entertain the notion, it's beyond your ability to choose this belief. Similarly, yet to a less extreme extent you cannot choose to believe in zeus. It just wouldn't compute for you, no could I believe in YHWH. I would need to be confronted with evidence that lead to such a belief organically.
You're NOT UNDERSTANDING. Woody asked why God just didn't do his God thing and plant whatever in Woodys mind that would literally MAKE him believe in God.
Catechism 1730:1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."
Catechism 1730:1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."
This conversation has been about God revealing himself, not God forcibly planting belief in anybody.
As an aside I would note that free thought isn't really a coherent concept as all thoughts are encumbered by our own limitations in knowledge and mental recollection. Perhaps I ask you to choose to name a city, any city, anywhere. Try it now just for fun....got a city, good read on.
You might have named a home town, nearby big city, or personal favorite. Did you pick Johannesburg? I think you probably didn't pick Johannesburg. You know it's a city, you probably know exactly where it is on a map, but the option of picking Johannesburg probably didn't pop into your mind at all yet many other cities did. Did you lack the free will to choose that city? You surely didn't lack the knowledge. Same of course goes for Mogadishu, doha, or montevideo. You probably know them all and probably didn't think of any of those as even options, you simply didn't recollect. Your minds recollective powers encumbered your choices of thought. Similarly, you didn't, or couldn't rather, think of any city you've not yet heard of or have completely forgotten you learned about. It seems painfully obvious our "choices" of thought are extremely limited by our knowledge and recollection, to various extremes as when given longer time we are able to recollect a bit more. Just as our choices of action are very limited by our own abilities.
You might have named a home town, nearby big city, or personal favorite. Did you pick Johannesburg? I think you probably didn't pick Johannesburg. You know it's a city, you probably know exactly where it is on a map, but the option of picking Johannesburg probably didn't pop into your mind at all yet many other cities did. Did you lack the free will to choose that city? You surely didn't lack the knowledge. Same of course goes for Mogadishu, doha, or montevideo. You probably know them all and probably didn't think of any of those as even options, you simply didn't recollect. Your minds recollective powers encumbered your choices of thought. Similarly, you didn't, or couldn't rather, think of any city you've not yet heard of or have completely forgotten you learned about. It seems painfully obvious our "choices" of thought are extremely limited by our knowledge and recollection, to various extremes as when given longer time we are able to recollect a bit more. Just as our choices of action are very limited by our own abilities.
God revealing himself in a way literally impossible to deny would seem that way.
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Mogadishu, doha, or montevideo. You probably know them all
I feel stupid.....
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God revealing himself in a way literally impossible to deny would seem that way.
Think Bigfoot walking through Times Square, not Bigfoot magically forcing you to believe he exists.
here is what he said:"God could reveal himself to me. He could do it to everyone in a way we could not deny. He has the power to do so. If he wants me to believe in him, he certainly has the ability to make that happen, yes?"
That's just teaching very convincingly. Did I violate a child's will by teaching him two and two make for in a way that he could not deny?
That's just teaching very convincingly. Did I violate a child's will by teaching him two and two make for in a way that he could not deny?
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here is what he said:"God could reveal himself to me. He could do it to everyone in a way we could not deny. He has the power to do so. If he wants me to believe in him, he certainly has the ability to make that happen, yes?"
That's just teaching very convincingly. Did I violate a child's will by teaching him two and two make for in a way that he could not deny?
Would God revealing his existence in a literally undeniable fashion seem to conflict with Catechism 1730?
quote:I don't see how knowledge encumbers this catechism's claims. To cleave to god require more than knowing he exist. In fact, it does require at minimum knowing he exists. If you were to argue it does violate this catechism, I'd ask how adam, moses, and all the other bible characters of note don't violate it. As I see them as having been taught of god's existence beyond all reasonable doubt.
Would God revealing his existence in a literally undeniable fashion seem to conflict with Catechism 1730?
You seem to be the only person who thought this conversation was about God forcing people to believe rather than revealing himself.
Even so knowing God exists doesn't make your salvational choice of putting your faith in God any less free.
Even so knowing God exists doesn't make your salvational choice of putting your faith in God any less free.
It says "so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain
How can something be freely obtained if it's literally impossible to not believe something. If God makes His existence literally undeniable, it would seem that not believing is an impossibility.... Isn't that correct?
How can something be freely obtained if it's literally impossible to not believe something. If God makes His existence literally undeniable, it would seem that not believing is an impossibility.... Isn't that correct?
If God makes His existence undeniable,ie literally impossible to believe otherwise, how is that not forced? There is no other possible option except to believe.
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It says "so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain.... by cleaving to him
fify. Now you see it's a free action. You freely cleave, you don't freely know. As stated above, I find the concept poorly thought.
quote:Because you must freely cleave. The cleaving is how you obtain. Belief isn't the centerpiece of the catetism. Even if it was, it would only prove the catechism incompatible with the bible as those character within the bible had no such choice. A point you now repeatedly failed to address.
How can something be freely obtained if it's literally impossible to not believe something.
quote:yup. Now tell me, why is it a problem that adam couldn't disbelieve in god's existence. Or how that relates to a catechism which clearly spells out an action, rather than belief, as it's central free act.
If God makes His existence literally undeniable, it would seem that not believing is an impossibility.... Isn't that correct?
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It says "so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain
How can something be freely obtained if it's literally impossible to not believe something. If God makes His existence literally undeniable, it would seem that not believing is an impossibility.... Isn't that correct?
Nobody is saying make it literally undeniable through some sort of magic. We are saying reveal himself. Bigfoot in Times Square. Not Bigfoot using magic to force belief.
If you think knowledge limits your ability to "freely attain" then the catechism, bible, and being raised by Christians all do this.
I've never seen anybody make this argument that knowledge destroys free will. It's beyond odd
Aren't you missing the "of his own accord" part as well? Adam, Moses and a few others are the handpicked exception to the rule. Kind of like how all are made with original sin except for Mary.
quote:quote:
It says "so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain
How can something be freely obtained if it's literally impossible to not believe something. If God makes His existence literally undeniable, it would seem that not believing is an impossibility.... Isn't that correct?
Nobody is saying make it literally undeniable through some sort of magic. We are saying reveal himself. Bigfoot in Times Square. Not Bigfoot using magic to force belief.
If you think knowledge limits your ability to "freely attain" then the catechism, bible, and being raised by Christians all do this.
I've never seen anybody make this argument that knowledge destroys free will. It's beyond odd
Yes, Woody said to make it undeniable, something undeniable leaves no choice. I'm not claiming knowledge destroys free will, I'm claiming that God doesn't literally force the truth of his existence on people, in a way in which its impossible to deny.
quote:nope. Choosing to cleave to god is no less a choice after knowing he exists. Just ask satan judas, or the antichrist.
Aren't you missing the "of his own accord" part as well?
quote:the rule appears to be a product of your imagination, with no basis in either your religion or reason. They aren't exceptions to a rule, they are disproofs of it. They had free will, just as you do.
Adam, Moses and a few others are the handpicked exception to the rule.
quote:there is literally nothing in the bible that indicates this about mary, we've god an old thread on it somewhere and otherwise smart catholic posters faired very poorly.
Kind of like how all are made with original sin except for Mary
I also find it incredibly odd that you are arguing knowledge of God destroys free will but you are also the guy who argues miracles like Fatima are God revealing himself to us. Your arguments and positions are shakier than a sandcastle in an earthquake.
quote:quote:nope. Choosing to cleave to god is no less a choice after knowing he exists. Just ask satan judas, or the antichrist.
Aren't you missing the "of his own accord" part as well?
quote:the rule appears to be a product of your imagination, with no basis in either your religion or reason. They aren't exceptions to a rule, they are disproofs of it. They had free will, just as you do.
Adam, Moses and a few others are the handpicked exception to the rule.
quote:there is literally nothing in the bible that indicates this about mary, we've god an old thread on it somewhere and otherwise smart catholic posters faired very poorly.
Kind of like how all are made with original sin except for Mary
No, I meant how does one come to find God on his own accord 'left in the hands of his own counsel"if he's forced by God to accept His existence by being confronted with undeniable truths from God himself?
If you don't believe that Mary dying without sin isn't a core Catholic belief I dont know what to tell you. You mention nothing in the Bible indicating Mary's sinless state, while I disagree with that, I'm confused by the fact that it seems you think Catholics adhere to the Sola scriptura line of thinking.
With regards to Adam and Moses, Adam was created before the fall of man, so obviously had a different relationship with God pre-rift so it seems pretty obvious why he's not included. As for Moses, I've got several ideas, but none I really want to dive into at this moment.
And with this I am going to bed. I will try and pick up tomorrow.
quote:Find is not the verb used. It's seek. The meaning is different. It's not about knowledge, but action.
No, I meant how does one come to find God on his own accord if he's forced by God to accept His existence by being confronted with undeniable truths from God himself?
quote:I know it is, I also know catholics have a very hard time defending it. Even if you readily abandon solo scriptura.
If you don't believe that Mary dying without sin isn't a core Catholic belief I dont know what to tell you.
quote:Again, I've done this before, look up the old thread and see how weak these claims are.
You mention nothing in the Bible indicating Mary's sinless state, while I disagree with that, I'm confused by the fact that it seems you think Catholics adhere to the Sola scriptura line of thinking.
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With regards to Adam and Moses, Adam was created before the fall of man, so obviously had a different relationship with God pre-rift
God is immutable. He desire for relationship wouldn't change, only man's ability to play his part. Again, this is incompatible with every other major character in the bible including the devil.
quote:Only in a discussion of original sin, not one of god's desires for man not to have clear knowledge of god.
so it seems pretty obvious why he's not included.
quote:Not just him but every single major character in the bible and every single human being ever who's seen a supernatural miracle. So while you are thinking on moses, think on them too.
As for Moses, I've got several ideas, but none I really want to dive into at this moment.
quote:If there were just some reliable evidence of such.
To the atheists on this board, what sort of evidence would you need to be convinced of God's existence?
Supposedly, the Christian Bible is the word of God. However, it is not accurate. So, why would a god be responsible for a book that he/she knows contains falsehoods? Why would he/she create different "bibles' with different, and sometimes contradictory, messages? If he/she were a loving and caring god, why would he/she cause so many people to suffer so horribly?
quote:Yep. Sounds like ancient men wrote that book.quote:If there were just some reliable evidence of such.
To the atheists on this board, what sort of evidence would you need to be convinced of God's existence?
Supposedly, the Christian Bible is the word of God. However, it is not accurate. So, why would a god be responsible for a book that he/she knows contains falsehoods? Why would he/she create different "bibles' with different, and sometimes contradictory, messages? If he/she were a loving and caring god, why would he/she cause so many people to suffer so horribly?
Ancient men did write that book.
quote:Exactly.
Ancient men did write that book.
quote:I spoke with my wife and prayed about it and we feel very strongly that God is not limited. He can and has revealed himself to human beings ( his creation ) without violating their free will.quote:
I don't even know what your argument is at this point...
The same it always has been. You claimed that God appearing to you and making Himself known to you wouldn't violate your free will in whether or not He existed. I disagree.
He is the one that judges whether someone sincerely chose to believe he existed and accept Jesus as their savior. Are the 12 disciples or any of the people who saw Jesus in the flesh experiencing heaven any less or more than I will because they personally interacted with Jesus in the human form?
The egyptians saw proof of God's existence time and time again!!!!!! They saw... They still could have asked for forgiveness and let the Jews go but our Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Always a big fan of husbands and wives praying together, good for y'all.
My definition of God's power is that he's able to do all that He may wish, all that is real and possible. He cannot do something bad, because He's inseparable from Good, which is his essence and nature.
I apologize if I appear to be creating a semantic argument but I still argue that it is not God's style to force a person to believe in His existence, to literally use his divine powers to erase all possibility that one might not agree that he exists. I don't believe that has any bearing on God's immutability, nor does it restrict him since it was his decision to grant us free-will to believe in Him, to love Him, and to believe in His Son.
My definition of God's power is that he's able to do all that He may wish, all that is real and possible. He cannot do something bad, because He's inseparable from Good, which is his essence and nature.
I apologize if I appear to be creating a semantic argument but I still argue that it is not God's style to force a person to believe in His existence, to literally use his divine powers to erase all possibility that one might not agree that he exists. I don't believe that has any bearing on God's immutability, nor does it restrict him since it was his decision to grant us free-will to believe in Him, to love Him, and to believe in His Son.
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Find is not the verb used. It's seek. The meaning is different. It's not about knowledge, but action.
I added the "left in the hand of his own counsel" after you replied. I think the entire sentence, taken together, shows that mankind has been granted the free will to believe or not to believe in God.
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I know it is, I also know catholics have a very hard time defending it. Even if you readily abandon solo scriptura.
Can you post the Mary thread or summarize your argument against it please?
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God is immutable. He desire for relationship wouldn't change, only man's ability to play his part. Again, this is incompatible with every other major character in the bible including the devil.
I'm not speaking towards God's mutability merely noting that Adam would have had to have known God was who He was, as He and Eve were the only two humans in existence, and Eve was created from Adam's rib and obviously didn't create Adam, that just leaves God, the being dispensing knowledge to them.
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Not just him but every single major character in the bible and every single human being ever who's seen a supernatural miracle. So while you are thinking on moses, think on them too.
I believe it's possible to witness a supernatural miracle without having an undeniable belief in the existence of the Christian God, furthermore if a being has already come to know God, it would seem to reason that one couldn't take his free will away by revealing himself to them without question.
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I apologize if I appear to be creating a semantic argument but I still argue that it is not God's style to force a person to believe in His existence, to literally use his divine powers to erase all possibility that one might not agree that he exists. I don't believe that has any bearing on God's immutability, nor does it restrict him since it was his decision to grant us free-will to believe in Him, to love Him, and to believe in His Son.
We're talking about revealing himself, not forcing belief on us.
He revealed himself to Moses, the disciples and tons of other figures and it doesn't remove their free will.
The important question isn't really do you believe God exists but do you put your faith in him. Do you put your faith in Jesus. Do you trust in him. This is very different from do you think he exists. The bible literally has characters who know God exists, who God revealed himself to, and some put their faith in him and some reject them.
Your points have been addressed but you keep repeating yourself.
We are talking about him forcing belief on us, if he reveals himself in a way as to make it undeniable that there's any other option except that He exists, it is forced. You can post about Bigfoot in time square but my point remains.
The meaning of the word undeniable when used in this way means there's no other possible way, so those that rejected His existence didn't have undeniable revelation of His existence.
The meaning of the word undeniable when used in this way means there's no other possible way, so those that rejected His existence didn't have undeniable revelation of His existence.
You continue with this strange concept that knowledge being available removes free will. Knowledge only assists in making an informed decision. It doesn't remove free will.
If God revealing himself removes free will then the existence of any object removes my free will to think it doesn't exist whether it's a phone, parent, child, spouse, car, etc.
I could still always choose to believe I am all that is real and everything is in my head or that I live in a computer simulation.
Somehow you think God revealing himself removes free will but he took scales off your eyes and left a holy book and a church for you to consult. As a believer you must consider this some type of revelation. You are convinced. How can you not think this takes away your free will but my preferred revelation would eliminate free will. It doesn't make sense.
If God revealing himself removes free will then the existence of any object removes my free will to think it doesn't exist whether it's a phone, parent, child, spouse, car, etc.
I could still always choose to believe I am all that is real and everything is in my head or that I live in a computer simulation.
Somehow you think God revealing himself removes free will but he took scales off your eyes and left a holy book and a church for you to consult. As a believer you must consider this some type of revelation. You are convinced. How can you not think this takes away your free will but my preferred revelation would eliminate free will. It doesn't make sense.
God is an omnipotent being, if he does something undeniably literally no other option exists.
rca21978
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