no tribes ever discovered who are Christian

8,100 Views | 109 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by JimLeahy
Silent For Too Long
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Your argument is compelling and persuasive. Thanks to this reasoned case, cogently put forward with relentless and crushing logic, I have concluded that the only sober course of action is to set my hair on fire and run in circles. Thank you for enlightening me on this urgent matter.


It's just a question that I thought was interesting. It's not an undefeatable argument nor is it some proof God doesn't exist.

I'm not sure why the Christians here have to make the post into a hyperbolic extreme and claim I'm arguing things I'm not. I guess it's easier than answering the question or a simple I don't know.
It might be an interesting question coming form someone who had no Christian background...

However, coming from a known apostate who is fully cognizant of the Christian apologetics on this issue, it's a trolling question designed to "stick it" to believers. It doesn't across as genuine at all. Now, maybe, if you hand't already developed and online reputation for "stick to believer" commentary, the potential for an honest discussion might go up.
Silent For Too Long
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My question was why, if Christianity is true, and pursuit of truth will lead you to Christ, has no culture ever been found to worship Christ or support Christian doctrine before being exposed to Christianity.
History is replete with Christ like revelations. It is so much to the point that some atheists accuse the early Christians of making up Christ by copying and pasting previous messianic figures.

So, which is it? Is it so common to be nothing spectacular, or so unique that it's "shocking" no one else has discovered it?
Beer Baron
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AG
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History is replete with Christ like revelations.
People still have Christ-like revelations. The only difference is today we generally call them mentally ill because we understand that's a thing now.
JimLeahy
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My question was why, if Christianity is true, and pursuit of truth will lead you to Christ, has no culture ever been found to worship Christ or support Christian doctrine before being exposed to Christianity.
History is replete with Christ like revelations. It is so much to the point that some atheists accuse the early Christians of making up Christ by copying and pasting previous messianic figures.

So, which is it? Is it so common to be nothing spectacular, or so unique that it's "shocking" no one else has discovered it?


I'm unaware of any group of people who independently came to Christianity without direct contact with the Christian world. If you are I'd be very interested to know.

I'm not sure what you mean by Christ like revelation. Certainly there have been other religions with varying similarities to Christianity. Arguing Christianity adopted aspects of other religions isn't in conflict with my question. Even if Christianity adopted aspects of other religions I'm still unaware of any group of people who independently came to a belief that is recognizable as Christian.
JimLeahy
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quote:
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Your argument is compelling and persuasive. Thanks to this reasoned case, cogently put forward with relentless and crushing logic, I have concluded that the only sober course of action is to set my hair on fire and run in circles. Thank you for enlightening me on this urgent matter.


It's just a question that I thought was interesting. It's not an undefeatable argument nor is it some proof God doesn't exist.

I'm not sure why the Christians here have to make the post into a hyperbolic extreme and claim I'm arguing things I'm not. I guess it's easier than answering the question or a simple I don't know.
It might be an interesting question coming form someone who had no Christian background...

However, coming from a known apostate who is fully cognizant of the Christian apologetics on this issue, it's a trolling question designed to "stick it" to believers. It doesn't across as genuine at all. Now, maybe, if you hand't already developed and online reputation for "stick to believer" commentary, the potential for an honest discussion might go up.


Yes. ... I've really stuck it to those darned believers. If you think I'm this evil troll apostate who force fed your children piss snow cones I really don't care. Just ignore me. I asked a question that I thought was interesting. I'm unaware of the apologetics on the subject. I'm not really aware of anybody else discussing this idea. Continue however with this stick it to mr atheist attitude that ruins dialogue and blame me for the ruined dialogue.
747Ag
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AG
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Why have we never found a tribe of people who have independently come to Christ and Christian doctrine? How is it that nobody ever pursued truth and came to Jesus without direct contact with Christians (that we know of)?
To me, it seems as though you are asking the wrong people/person. Both Judaism and Christianity are revealed religions (that is, God has chosen certain people in certain times to reveal Himself in some way). It is He that set the parameters or rules. I read this question as "Why did God not reveal Himself to other tribes and cultures?" He knows; we don't.
747Ag
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AG
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Yes. ... I've really stuck it to those darned believers.
While this likely is a mistaken attribution, there have been a number of atheists that come here with that sort of mindset. Pardon us for being somewhat defensive.
SapperAg
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AG
What are the apologetics on it? I've only really seen the monist perspective that those whom the religion were not revealed to (Indians, for example) were incapable of being saved in any possible universe and thus placed away from where the Bible was spread since there was no point exposing them to Christianity. Bad, bad argument, but it's the only serious attempt I've run into that tries to tackle the issue.
Frok
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AG
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"Why did God not reveal Himself to other tribes and cultures?"
He has. He uses His church to do it. I know that isn't an answer that is going to convince anyone. But He uses people to spread the gospel. He revealed it to 12 men and now it's spread across much of the globe through word of mouth.
AccountantAg
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AG
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What are the apologetics on it? I've only really seen the monist perspective that those whom the religion were not revealed to (Indians, for example) were incapable of being saved in any possible universe and thus placed away from where the Bible was spread since there was no point exposing them to Christianity. Bad, bad argument, but it's the only serious attempt I've run into that tries to tackle the issue.


I think you are starting with a false premise, which is everyone deserves to be saved. That is, you've made up your mind that if there is a God (not necessarily the Christian God) he would do X, Y and Z.

Then when the bible doesn't address (or does but not the way you think it should be) you say "Yeah there isn't a god because he didn't do things the way I think they would be done"
JimLeahy
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"Why did God not reveal Himself to other tribes and cultures?"
He has. He uses His church to do it. I know that isn't an answer that is going to convince anyone. But He uses people to spread the gospel. He revealed it to 12 men and now it's spread across much of the globe through word of mouth.


yet when we talk about tribes that never had contact with Christians it is always said that they have some path to come to Jesus. that if they seek him they will find him. I would just expect that of all the countless cultures that were separate from Christian that one of them would have found Christianity independently.

I thought it was an interesting concept.

Thank you all for your views.
RAB91
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People still have Christ-like revelations. The only difference is today we generally call them mentally ill because we understand that's a thing now.
Oh, pot meet kettle...

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Pardon us for being somewhat defensive.

Sorry, but no pardon required. Tyson has a long history on this board, and he's earned this type of feedback.
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yet when we talk about tribes that never had contact with Christians it is always said that they have some path to come to Jesus. that if they seek him they will find him. I would just expect that of all the countless cultures that were separate from Christian that one of them would have found Christianity independently.

They have a path to come to God, and many people/cultures who had no exposure to Christianity have probably walked this path.
SapperAg
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AG
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What are the apologetics on it? I've only really seen the monist perspective that those whom the religion were not revealed to (Indians, for example) were incapable of being saved in any possible universe and thus placed away from where the Bible was spread since there was no point exposing them to Christianity. Bad, bad argument, but it's the only serious attempt I've run into that tries to tackle the issue.


I think you are starting with a false premise, which is everyone deserves to be saved. That is, you've made up your mind that if there is a God (not necessarily the Christian God) he would do X, Y and Z.

Then when the bible doesn't address (or does but not the way you think it should be) you say "Yeah there isn't a god because he didn't do things the way I think they would be done"


Why, then, do we claim God to embody all that is good if he willingly creates beings who suffer and perish only to suffer eternally with no greater meaning attached to the suffering?
Beer Baron
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AG
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Oh, pot meet kettle...
I get that you find me mentally ill for being attracted to men. Fine. Care to address my actual point? Can you name a modern person who claims to have elaborate revelations from a deity who isn't viewed as being nuts? I'm not talking about general, vague "I feel the Lord directed me to do this or that" type things. I'm talking elaborate so-called revelations of Biblical proportions. Typically we see the lower-functioning people with such thoughts yelling at squirrels on street corners and the higher-functioning ones leading cults.
AccountantAg
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AG
Again the god of the bible does not guarantee you a life of roses, in fact it's the opposite. He guarantees that you WILL face tribulations. He also guarantees that there will be people who are not saved.

Again you've already made up your mind how a god should act so you're unable to comprehend one that wouldn't.

It would be like me holding an apple out in front of me and saying "If gravity exists this apple will soar into the atmosphere" then when the apple falls to the ground I go whelp gravity must not exist. I obviously dont even comprehend what gravity is if I'm going to expect one thing to happen when the t law says the exact opposite will.
JimLeahy
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Again the god of the bible does not guarantee you a life of roses, in fact it's the opposite. He guarantees that you WILL face tribulations. He also guarantees that there will be people who are not saved.

Again you've already made up your mind how a god should act so you're unable to comprehend one that wouldn't.

It would be like me holding an apple out in front of me and saying "If gravity exists this apple will soar into the atmosphere" then when the apple falls to the ground I go whelp gravity must not exist. I obviously dont even comprehend what gravity is if I'm going to expect one thing to happen when the t law says the exact opposite will.


So in your view is there any way a person who never heard of Christianity through evangelism can come to Christ?
SapperAg
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AG
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Again the god of the bible does not guarantee you a life of roses, in fact it's the opposite. He guarantees that you WILL face tribulations. He also guarantees that there will be people who are not saved.

Again you've already made up your mind how a god should act so you're unable to comprehend one that wouldn't.

It would be like me holding an apple out in front of me and saying "If gravity exists this apple will soar into the atmosphere" then when the apple falls to the ground I go whelp gravity must not exist. I obviously dont even comprehend what gravity is if I'm going to expect one thing to happen when the t law says the exact opposite will.

I'm saying that if you are going to claim that God is the literal embodiment of the good and the just, you have to explain WHY he creates people with souls who will NEVER have an opportunity to be saved and who will NEVER have the same chance for salvation than others will have. If you can't see why this is a huge philosophical deal, then you aren't even trying to understand your faith.
AccountantAg
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AG
Sure there is. How can I put a limit on what God can do? If your follow up is why don't we see tribes worshipping Christ, the answer is I don't know. Maybe he presented himself and they denied him. Maybe he presented himself and they couldn't understand. Maybe they are following Christ and don't even know it.

It's a question I had when I first became a Christian so I obviously think it's a fair one. It's just no one would be able to provide a perfect answer because there isn't one. The simple fact is we don't know. That's not good enough for some and it is what is.

I have my own struggles to deal with and things I need to learn so I don't dwell on the question "could Tarzan be a Christian" very much. I think I would if the bible said "every single person on earth will worship Christ, no exceptions"
AccountantAg
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AG
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Again the god of the bible does not guarantee you a life of roses, in fact it's the opposite. He guarantees that you WILL face tribulations. He also guarantees that there will be people who are not saved.

Again you've already made up your mind how a god should act so you're unable to comprehend one that wouldn't.

It would be like me holding an apple out in front of me and saying "If gravity exists this apple will soar into the atmosphere" then when the apple falls to the ground I go whelp gravity must not exist. I obviously dont even comprehend what gravity is if I'm going to expect one thing to happen when the t law says the exact opposite will.

I'm saying that if you are going to claim that God is the literal embodiment of the good and the just, you have to explain WHY he creates people with souls who will NEVER have an opportunity to be saved and who will NEVER have the same chance for salvation than others will have. If you can't see why this is a huge philosophical deal, then you aren't even trying to understand your faith.


I think you are taking the "literal embodiment of good" too far but that's just me. Bad things happen in this world and people will not be saved. I don't know why He created the world that way and I don't need to be able to explain that in order to have faith.

If you start with the hypothesis that NOBODY deserves to be saved than you can see why that question isn't paramount. I don't deserve salvation but through his mercy and grace I am.
SapperAg
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If you don't deserve salvation, then why were you created in the first place? If you cannot gain salvation, period, because you were never exposed to God, why were you created?

If God is not the embodiment of good, why would you worship him? What trust could you place in any promise made or in the truth of the existence around you?
AccountantAg
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AG
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If you don't deserve salvation, then why were you created in the first place? If you cannot gain salvation, period, because you were never exposed to God, why were you created?

If God is not the embodiment of good, why would you worship him? What trust could you place in any promise made or in the truth of the existence around you?


I don't know why I was created, you'd have to check with the big man upstairs for that answer. I don't remember the verse but I know the bible says something along the lines of everyone will be exposed to god in some way (paraphrasing of course). Just because you or I don't like the manner in which he does does not invalidate it in my mind.

I honestly don't truly understand what you mean by embodiment of good. To me that means he will make everything perfect and never let anything bad happen. The bible literally says bad things will happen so I don't see why I should question my faith if something bad happens.
JimLeahy
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If everyone is exposed to God in some way it's astounding we've never found a tribe of Christians
AccountantAg
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If everyone is exposed to God in some way it'd astounding we've never found a tribe of Christians


Im not surprised.....so now what? Back to the "if there was a god he would....blah blah" nonsense?
SapperAg
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I'm talking about "the good" as in the philosophical principle of the ethic and the aesthetic. God is supposed to embody the good and the perfect. That is what makes him a being worthy of worship and worthy of trust. Just saying "bad things happen" is not an answer. It's a challenge to the very idea of God as the embodiment of the good. This is why the question "why do bad things happen to good people" is such a massive sticking point for any religion. And the answer always boils down to, "we don't know." In short, there is no answer. If God is just and good in totality, why create beings who must be punished and why create beings who will be punished in ways not related to justice? If you reach the conclusion that there is total depravity with no purpose, then you must conclude that there is no god with the qualities ascribed to the Christian God.
AccountantAg
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AG
So let's see if I got this:
1.) I believe the bible is the truth and word of god
2.) the bible says I will face tribulations
3.) I face said tribulations
4.) gods word is proven to be true
5.) I must now conclude the Christian god does not exist.

Cool starry bra
SapperAg
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AG
Wow. Take a Philosophy 101 course.
Knife_Party
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Why would God create beings that suffer? Some of them a hell of a lot? On top of that, if in all that suffering you don't choose to believe in the God that created you and that suffering, you end up in eternal suffering. Is God love or not?
AccountantAg
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Wow. Take a Philosophy 101 course.


I don't need to take a philosophy course to know that you keep brining flawed premises to prove your point. Just like my apple example.

For example your point that Christianity must answer "why do bad things happen to good people?" Bad things happen to everyone and no one is good. There has only been one good person in history (according to the bible) and he was crucified.
AccountantAg
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AG
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Why would God create beings that suffer? Some of them a hell of a lot? On top of that, if in all that suffering you don't choose to believe in the God that created you and that suffering, you end up in eternal suffering. Is God love or not?


Even atheists should recognize this as ludicrous. You're argument is so flawed it's amazing none of you can see it.

You're questioning how a God SHOULD be. You have no idea what a god should be. It's not like there is an observable all knowing entity out there where you can empirically say well this is how that god acts so I can now deduce yours doesn't exist because he didn't do x, y, and z
Knife_Party
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I'll ask a simple question. Is the Christian God, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, and omnibenevolent?
AccountantAg
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AG
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I'll ask a simple question. Is the Christian God, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, and omnibenevolent?


Unfortunately I haven't given that question much thought or study to answer, it's kind of like watching Alabama smoke you 59-0 and trying to figure out what color water coolers we should have had. There's bigger things that need to be addressed
SapperAg
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AG
You aren't grasping the fundamental nature of the question. What I'm asking goes beyond "we are all born flawed" and asks WHY WOULD A GOD CREATE A FLAWED CREATION IN THE FIRST PLACE? What boney just asked you is about the nature of God, a question theologians have dealt with for as long as there has been religion. And those qualities boney listed are the qualities ascribed to the Christian God by those theologians. Without those qualities, one cannot trust what God says is true. One cannot take the Bible as the "word of God," if God is not a benevolent, and therefore trustworthy, entity. But it's a Catch-22. If God is benevolent and good, then ALL suffering must either not occur, only occur justly, or demonstrably relate to grander, benevolent mission. The existence of any unredeemable suffering is thus a proof against the existence of an all-powerful deity that embodies goodness and justice.
AccountantAg
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AG
And you can't grasp a simple concept apparently. You can't disprove the notion of god by saying if he did exist he would do XXXXX. There is no way you could know what a god would or would not do.

You can do all your fancy word gymnastics you want, it's crazy to me that you think you can prove god does not exist.

I don't need to answer the question of "Why did god do ______??" Despite your outrage this is the simple fact of the matter.
SapperAg
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I'm not claiming I can prove God doesn't exist. I'm saying you cannot so glibly dismiss the problem of evil. You have to be able to ascribe certain characteristics to God. Otherwise, how can you trust a single word in the Bible? How can you be sure there is only one God? How can you be sure of reality if you believe a God exists but he is not trustworthy? These are basic, fundamental questions in any religious philosophy. The fact that you are unaware of them, unaware of the problem they pose, and unaware of how inane your response is, is fascinating. It seems you have zero interest in understanding the being you claim to worship.
AccountantAg
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AG
Okay help me out here

Is it possible for a god to create a world where he is completely trustworthy yet allow evil to exist at the same time? (Hint: there is no way you can possibly know this because you're not a god)

Why would I ponder night and day to a question that can never be answered?
 
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