*** STAR WARS EPISODE VII Spoiler Discussion ***

58,640 Views | 443 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by wangus12
TCTTS
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Now that the spoilers are starting to hit fast and heavy (with the mother of all potential spoilers hitting last night), some of us thought it best to start a new thread dedicated solely to Episode VII spoiler discussion. Not only was it becoming too much of a challenge to discuss some of this stuff in the other thread without ruining it for everyone, but many posters were starting to avoid the thread altogether, and I don't want to hinder any general Star Wars discussion.

So, for the next 14 months, let's commit all Episode VII spoiler talk to this thread, while using the other thread for all other Star Wars discussion (non-spoiler Episode VII talk, the OT, the prequels, the EU, cartoons, etc.). That said, everything I have in this initial post - which is basically a lengthy breakdown of (almost) everything we currently know - is mostly set-up type stuff. So when discussing from here on out, I think it's still a good idea to treat some of the big, final-act spoilers with caution, and at least briefly warn posters of third-act plot points (big deaths, huge reveals, etc.). In other words, it'd be nice to continue being able to discuss spoilers without outright ruining the entire thing for everyone. I have no problem learning details here and there from the first 2/3 or so of the movie, but I want to know nothing else from the last half hour. I'm not saying use spoiler tags, because that defeats the purpose, but just try to give a quick/brief heads up when delving into final-act discussion.


*** 10.20.14 UPDATE ***

I've moved the contents of this initial post to a custom page at the blog section of my site, one that not only allows for a cleaner presentation, but is far easier for me to edit and add to as we learn more info. All updates from now on will be found at the page linked to below, while this thread will obviously continue serve as a place for discussion, news posts, etc...

THE PROJECTION LIST / Star Wars: The Force Awakens Comprehensive Primer
Brian Earl Spilner
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Fantastic.
Saxsoon
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Nice 19 edits. Great post!

I am going to talk the biggie below!!!







I am really excited about the BIGGIE. I know it would be difficult without him in any of the promotional materials, but I think they can play up the angle of where he is and that would explain. Of course most of the internet would know anyway because of the leak.

I do like the idea of killing Vader did something to himand he didn't become the Hero we were all expecting. I think this just makes the new trilogy all that more personal now that the main villain is not only someone that we know, but someone that we love. I don't know how it would happen, but I think it would be such a fantastic angle to take.


TCTTS
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quote:
Nice 19 edits. Great post!

Ha, half of those were adding links and correcting formatting errors from copying & pasting from a doc, but I admittedly re-write and edit the hell out of a lot of my posts, especially ones like this. I love that the big *edited* disclaimer is no longer at the bottom of a post, but the edit count is just as ridiculous (and embarrassing in my case). Either way, expect that number to skyrocket over the duration of this thread.

quote:
I am really excited about the BIGGIE. I know it would be difficult without him in any of the promotional materials, but I think they can play up the angle of where he is and that would explain. Of course most of the internet would know anyway because of the leak.

I do like the idea of killing Vader did something to himand he didn't become the Hero we were all expecting. I think this just makes the new trilogy all that more personal now that the main villain is not only someone that we know, but someone that we love. I don't know how it would happen, but I think it would be such a fantastic angle to take.

I have to say, I'm coming around on this. The idea you mention of the villain being someone we love could definitely make for a hugely investing arc, if done right. Part of me really, really wants to see an older, bearded, Jedi Luke in an Obi-Wan type role, but on the other hand, that idea almost seems relatively quaint and boring now. There's a ton of potential with this new route, but something tells me this isn't all there is to it, if true. I have a feeling we may only know a small percentage of the eventual reality.
Saxsoon
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I would ask in the main thread for general star wars lore but it might spoil it. Has there ever been a jedi who is undercover as a sith?
jr15aggie
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Great job OP... I will have to read it all later when I have more time... my main thoughts thus far on the main question on everybody's mind right now:

Can Luke really be the bad guy?

No:
So many reasons why this doesn't work. Unless he tranforms mid-movie, we will never see Luke in any of the trailers and he will be the first person people want to see. No way they can keep this a secret. Also, why are we trampling on one of this generations favorite hero's? Fanboys can say what they want about how it might be cool, but the masses will be like WTF did they just do to star wars. Tempted/turning to the dark side... maybe... but a full on evil robotic cyborg (basically leaving nothing left of the hero from ROTJ) is a bit much. So my vote is a big NO, but I'll explore my thoughts on how it's possible...

Yes: I think this is possible in a couple ways. Regarding Luke and seeing him as we know him and in the trailers, I recall hearing something about how this will be the first movie to have flashbacks. So perhaps they give us old Luke via flashbacks and ultimately show how his body was destroyed and how/why he turned. The one troubling thing is that we've heard from the get-go that "Luke is missing" so who knows. My other theory is that we've heard rumblings of a lost lightsaber and a severed hand... the one from Empire? Could the emperor have cloned Luke from the hand and this cyborg is a creation of that?

Other Possibilities: We've heard grumblings that the emperor will be back and is this cyborg (villians aren't truly dead until they are burned, decapitated, vaporized, etc... and even then...). Whoever the cyborg is, I would not be surprised if this was the role Andy Serkis was brought in for.


Generally speaking, any scenario involving Luke or some version of Luke being the cyborg villian requires too much out of the movie and is too big a distraction. I just don't see how you can possibly do that when the only thing the fans have wanted since the 80's is to see what happens to our heros next. This is suppose to be a movie and trilogy about passing the torch, not trampling on the past. If they do this to Luke Skywalker, they literally make everything that he did in the original trilogy mean absolutely nothing! I don't give a crap if it makes good shock cinema or not. At this point the original trilogy is the gold standard and a decision like this will only trample on that IMO. We don't need this to be a "Redemption of Luke" trilogy... the guy is Luke Friggin Skywalker... old man that will kick ass one last time and pave the way for the future!
Saxsoon
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Discussing Biggie





Maybe Mark Hamill asked for this. He seems to have only played villains in a lot of his voice acting. He does evil REALLY REALLY well.
Brian Earl Spilner
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quote:
Could the emperor have cloned Luke from the hand and this cyborg is a creation of that?
Literally was about to post this before I saw your post.
Brian Earl Spilner
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What if at the end of the movie, you get the big "reveal", but then the REAL, bearded Luke shows up right before the credits roll?
TCTTS
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I don't know. What would be the point of having a cloned Luke? We'd have no emotional connection to him/it at all. Besides, Luke vs bizzaro Luke would just be kind of hokey. I really hope Abrams stays away from any cloning whatsoever. And that goes for the Emperor as well. Palpatine - or a Palpatine clone - pulling the strings again feels so stale.
Urban Ag
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love the idea of Luke being corrupted. Maybe the ten years or so that he has been gone was ten years spent being tormented, tortured, and brain washed by the Sith and now he is some half human-half cyborg freak show.

Luke was always too pure and clean. Making him a monster is f'n epic.

TCTS - thanks for putting this together. I have sent the link out to some other fellow star wars nerds and Texags will be getting a good amount of traffic from non Ags. This movie may in fact be, as you have noted, the biggest box office draw of all time.
TCTTS
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Nice! No problem. I wanted to get all this organized, even if for myself, just to finally have it all in one place.

And yeah, I'm becoming more and more confident that this becomes the highest grossing movie of all time, no question.
jr15aggie
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I have a pretty good feeling that JJ is laughing right now watching the internet go crazy with speculation that he has purposefully leaked... because a lot of it is false.
Urban Ag
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it's so awesome that a little more than a year from now I will be taking my sons to see this in the theater, god willing, like my dad took me and my older brother back in 77, 80, and 83. How cool is that? I'm not a big movie person but this is a lot of fun and anticipation.

My 6 and 9 year olds are talking about a movie that is over a year from being released. That's Manziel level hype right there when kids that young are already talking about it.
Brian Earl Spilner
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$210M+ opening weekend.
TCTTS
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Urban Ag
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Had no idea who Daisy Rdiley was before this thread. She has some serious "girl next door" appeal.
jr15aggie
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quote:
$210M+ opening weekend.

That's probably very possible. I can only imagine how many screens this is gonna be shown on... all sold out of course!
TCTTS
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quote:
Had no idea who Daisy Rdiley was before this thread. She has some serious "girl next door" appeal.

Yeah, there are hardly any pics/vids of her at all, and she hasn't really done anything even remotely well known. Looks like she recently deleted her Twitter account, but before she did, she made a quick ice bucket challenge video a few weeks back that shows a bit of her personality. Super cute too. Found a link where someone else uploaded it...

TCTTS
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Ridley totally has a Padme/Leia look, so I'm wondering if when we first meet her, she's living alone and poor on that desert planet, but then when she eventually seeks out Han, it's a surprise when she (maybe) calls him "dad" or something? In the original cast announcement photo, she's seated right in between Ford and Fisher, which is where all the daughter-of-Han-&-Leia talk originated from, but everything since has pointed to that not being the case. Still, she looks too much like her potential mother and grandmother for it not to at least be some kind of surprise...

TCTTS
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Also - there hasn't been any info saying they're not married, but then again, there literally hasn't been a single piece of news/rumor even hinting at Han & Leia being together, either. I'm wondering if they're broken up in Episode VII, and Ridley is somewhat of a loner/rebel child of divorce? Having Han & Leia separated would also be a great excuse to bring back the vibe of A New Hope, with Han & co having to seek out Leia, but the two hate each other again (in a playful way). Could be a lot of fun if so, but who knows how they're going to handle it.
80s Guy
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Having Han & Leia separated would also be a great excuse to bring back the vibe of A New Hope, with Han & co having to seek out Leia, but the two hate each other again (in a playful way). Could be a lot of fun if so, but who knows how they're going to handle it.


Hopefully better than this...

TCTTS
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Ha, I had blocked that from my memory.
Clem
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Yes: I think this is possible in a couple ways. Regarding Luke and seeing him as we know him and in the trailers, I recall hearing something about how this will be the first movie to have flashbacks. So perhaps they give us old Luke via flashbacks and ultimately show how his body was destroyed and how/why he turned. The one troubling thing is that we've heard from the get-go that "Luke is missing" so who knows. My other theory is that we've heard rumblings of a lost lightsaber and a severed hand... the one from Empire? Could the emperor have cloned Luke from the hand and this cyborg is a creation of that?

This is what I was thinking as well. Post-ROTJ/Pre-Missing Luke would give approximately 20 years worth of material to use as flashbacks, which could be incorporated into the marketing. Maybe Max's character recounts the legend of Luke Skywalker Post-ROTJ giving a golden opportunity to flashback to scenes of him in battle. Then his retelling ends with Luke having gone missing and nobody having heard from him in ten years until this lightsaber showed up.

I would love to see Luke as a twisted/tortured bad-guy. So many conflicting feelings wrapped up in seeing that would make for a great movie.

Then 36 years from now, Boyega's character can turn evil and the citizens of a galaxy far, far away will all develop serious long-term trust issues.
agracer
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Maybe they'll make Luke more of a hero/villain...not truly evil, but more disenfranchised by the politics of the new galaxy and telling everyone to FO. Not inherently evil (as in kill everyone who comes along) but no longer a boy scout.

Maybe we'll just see bad Luke at the end of EP VII, but in VIII we'll realize he's just a bitter and angry old Jedi who doesn't want to help anymore.
MJ20/20
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Was anything ever said about why Lando isn't going to be in VII?
Fat Bib Fortuna
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When I read agracer's post , a gear clicked in my head from the great OT Annotated Screenplays which I unfortunately don't have any more.

In the first draft of Star Wars, Obi-Wan has a cybernetic arm, maybe an eye as well, and is broken down and very bitter about things when Luke meets him, nothing like the Ben we know in ANH.

That would be a good inspiration for Luke at a similar age if he has come to the realization that after killing Palps & Vader and helping blow up two death stars, most of the galaxy doens't really care and isn't really affected by it. Particularly if you add in the idea that he's spent a majority of the time since still fighting, putting out brush fires, solving conflicts, being asked to do so much because he's the only Jedi around.

In a few of the more well-written EU books, they discuss Luke starting to veer towards the dark side without even realizing it, because he has no time to actually "learn about the Force" - all he does is use it for what seems to be the best course of action for himself, his friends, or the New Republic. Only when he has the chance to step back does he see that he's using the Force carte blanche without any realization of why he is or even if he should be.

Realizing that he'll never be able to solve all the galaxy's problems, compounded by realizing that everyone save Leia in his family is not only dead, but died horribly (Anakin, Beru, Owen) - and yeah, I could see Luke at least going very gray in his view of the Force/willingness to interact with others.

Saxsoon
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However that spoiler flat out says he is the true big bad, not a moral grey.

Could be a loss in translation in the game of telephone, but as it stands from what we have heard, and based solely on what we have heard, that doesn't seem the case.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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or maybe he's agreed to lead the bad guys, then he wipes their asses out in the end, playing off the other spoiler that "luke saves the day, but in a bad way".

I think Lando is not in this one because he was terrible on Dancing with the Stars and JJ Abrams demands strong waltz and rhumba skills.
TCTTS
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Now THIS would actually make a lot more sense. Making Star Wars just followed up on their initial report, and basically, as suspected, they're getting word that the big Luke reveal scene likely exists, but "there's a twist." They don't know what the twist is, but here's their (poorly written) speculation...

quote:
I think there's a chance this is her "cave" sequence like Luke Skywalker's in The Empire Strikes Back. This could be like Luke Skywalker going into the cave and cutting off Darth Vader's head. Only we have seen images of Luke swinging at Vader and his head being cut off. So we assume Luke Skywalker cuts off Darth Vader's head in The Empire Strikes Back (had the internet existed). Only there was a twist in the sequence. It was a vision.

Could it be a vision? Could it be "Kira's" test? Might she enter the cave, fail, exit and find the man she was looking for standing there?

quote:
I have been told Max von Sydow represents "Kira" if she doesn't change her life. She can easily become him if she doesn't alter her life's path. It could be interesting if her fate still rests around the cyborg motif. Just a thought.

As much as I hate dream sequences, this seems like the most plausible answer, and I'd be all for it. Either way, we're back to not knowing one way or the other, and I feel a lot better now. Surprises are still in store...

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/10/huge-rumor-follow-star-wars-episode-vii-remember-failure-back-cave/

And here's Latino Review's weekly SW round-up (which is scatterbrained as usual), discussing the same follow-up article...

http://www.latino-review.com/news/star-wars-most-people-can-read-80-of-this-spoiler-column
TCTTS
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Besides, Making Star Wars is getting all this info from pre-production artwork that's being passed along to them, but they obviously can't show it, so they describe it. And there's just NO WAY - if that scene was actually, truly legit, and meant what it did - that anyone other than a tiny handful of people would even have access to that artwork. Like someone mentioned earlier, when filming Empire, not even the actors shooting the scene knew that Vader was telling Luke he's his father. Abrams sure as sh*t wouldn't let similar info get out in any way, shape, or form. One of the biggest movie spoilers in 30+ years wouldn't be hanging as artwork in some production office. It'd be locked in a safe somewhere behind a guarded door.
Brian Earl Spilner
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^ Exactly my point on the other thread.
jr15aggie
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I like how you a guys are thinking because it agrees with me. The recent rumors are bogus or heavily misinterpreted.

Luke is a bad evil cyborg... Han and Leia either never got married or are separated... Their kid ran away and will turn bad too... Sheesh... Talk about painting the blackest picture possible. Star Wars is suppose to be fun too.
DB Coach
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Thanks TCTTS....this is great! And, I love your website. I've points several friends to both your threads on here as well as the website. Nice job!

I can't wait for the new vision that JJ is creating!
TCTTS
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Thanks, DB! That's awesome. Much appreciated.

I actually decided to retrofit my initial post here for a big, continually-updated Episode VII "comprehensive primer" on my site, and it turned out really, really well. It's super clean and simple, but I'm really proud of it.

Once I go live with the page, I'll post the link in the OP, and likely just use the version on my site as the "master" post from that point going forward, if only because it's way easier to edit (and it looks/flows better there too). That, and I also think it could potentially be a big asset for my site over the next few months, pulling in new and returning users who wouldn't otherwise have known about The Projection List. I'll of course continue to post links/updates in this thread, since there are no comments on my site, and obviously nothing beats the discussion here.

I don't want to go live with the page just yet, because my blog URL still isn't finalized, and I don't want a bunch of people potentially linking to/bookmarking a soon-to-be-dead URL. I'll probably go live with it right around the time the main section of the site launches (which is happening soon). Can't wait!
 
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