The Real Miracle of Acupuncture: That Anyone Still Believes In It

11,593 Views | 206 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Jacques
Woody2006
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AG
http://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-real-miracle-of-acupuncture-that-anyone-still-believes-in-it
quote:
Unlike plenty of other mystic beliefs, the practical nature of acupuncture has the benefit of making it readily falsifiable through the form of a sham study. In a sham study we can compare genuine acupuncture, in which real acupuncturists provide treatment, to sham acupuncture in which researchers go through the motions, randomly poking or randomly pretending to poke their patients with needles. More research has been done into acupuncture than practically any other kind of alternative medicine, yet the evidence from thousands of studies points conclusively to the fact that acupuncture, at worst, is completely ineffective and, at best, is no more effective than a placebo. Astoundingly, the benefit of acupuncture is so poor that in plenty of studies, even compared to no treatment, the benefits of acupuncture are practically impossible to notice.
quote:
"There is now unanimity between acupuncturists and nonacupuncturists that any benefits that may exist are too small to provide any noticeable benefit to patients. That being the case, it is hard to see why acupuncture is still used. Certainly, such an accumulation of negative results would result in the withdrawal of any conventional treatment." David Colquhoun
quote:
"Almost all trials of alternative medicines seem to end up with the conclusion that more research is needed. After more than 3,000 trials, that is dubious. ... Since it has proved impossible to find consistent evidence after more than 3,000 trials, it is time to give up." David Colquhoun
Fonzie Scheme
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AG
Dude. Nobody cares.
haircut
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AG
WGAS
SECBabe
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But my acupuncturist was recommended by my chiropractor!
Woody2006
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AG
Good contributions thus far.
Tanya 93
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Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.
mid90
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AG
My crossfit coach is also my chiropractor, and he recommended a paleo acupuncturist. No harmful metal or plastic needles: only bone shards from farm raised animals.
haircut
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AG
quote:
Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.
Yeah, but there is a link, so you're wrong.
Woody2006
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AG
If people like snake oil, who are you to tell them it's ineffective? /Tanya
SECBabe
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quote:
Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.


Did you know that children die in America because these people force their kids into alternative medicine rather than real treatments.
Tanya 93
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quote:
If people like snake oil, who are you to tell them it's ineffective? /Tanya
If it doesn't harm people and the people are relieved, who are you to tell them it didn't make them better?

Don't use it if you don't want to.

But I do know I have used homeopathic stuff with my son when he was younger and it did work when the modern stuff didn't.
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.


Did you know that children die in America because these people force their kids into alternative medicine rather than real treatments.
Did you know people in America die because of conventional medicine?
Beer Baron
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AG
I'll just stick with good old-fashioned prayer, tyvm.
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
I'll just stick with good old-fashioned prayer, tyvm.
At least prayer doesn't end with you being stuck full of ineffective needles and a hefty bill for said ineffective service.
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
I'll just stick with good old-fashioned prayer, tyvm.
At least prayer doesn't end with you being stuck full of ineffective needles and a hefty bill for said ineffective service.
Oh my.

How adorable!
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
quote:
If people like snake oil, who are you to tell them it's ineffective? /Tanya
If it doesn't harm people and the people are relieved, who are you to tell them it didn't make them better?

Don't use it if you don't want to.

But I do know I have used homeopathic stuff with my son when he was younger and it did work when the modern stuff didn't.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25617812

quote:
Conditioned placebo analgesia persists when subjects know they are receiving a placebo.
Abstract
Belief in the effectiveness of a placebo treatment is widely thought to be critical for placebo analgesia. Many types of placebo responses--even those that depend on conditioning--appear to be mediated by expectations that are strengthened as treatment cues are reinforced with positive outcomes. However, placebo effects may occur even when participants are aware they are receiving a placebo. To address the question of whether conditioned placebo analgesia can persist in the absence of expectations, we studied the effects of long (4 days) versus short (1 day) conditioning to a placebo treatment. After an initial placebo test, a "reveal" manipulation convincingly demonstrated to participants that they had never received an active drug. Placebo analgesia persisted after the reveal in the long conditioning group only. These findings suggest that reinforcing treatment cues with positive outcomes can create placebo effects that are independent of reported expectations for pain relief.
PERSPECTIVE:
This article demonstrates a form of placebo analgesia that relies on prior conditioning rather than current expected pain relief. This highlights the importance of prior experience on pain relief and offers insight into the variability of placebo effects across individuals.
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
quote:
If people like snake oil, who are you to tell them it's ineffective? /Tanya
If it doesn't harm people and the people are relieved, who are you to tell them it didn't make them better?

Don't use it if you don't want to.

But I do know I have used homeopathic stuff with my son when he was younger and it did work when the modern stuff didn't.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25617812

quote:
Conditioned placebo analgesia persists when subjects know they are receiving a placebo.
Abstract
Belief in the effectiveness of a placebo treatment is widely thought to be critical for placebo analgesia. Many types of placebo responses--even those that depend on conditioning--appear to be mediated by expectations that are strengthened as treatment cues are reinforced with positive outcomes. However, placebo effects may occur even when participants are aware they are receiving a placebo. To address the question of whether conditioned placebo analgesia can persist in the absence of expectations, we studied the effects of long (4 days) versus short (1 day) conditioning to a placebo treatment. After an initial placebo test, a "reveal" manipulation convincingly demonstrated to participants that they had never received an active drug. Placebo analgesia persisted after the reveal in the long conditioning group only. These findings suggest that reinforcing treatment cues with positive outcomes can create placebo effects that are independent of reported expectations for pain relief.
PERSPECTIVE:
This article demonstrates a form of placebo analgesia that relies on prior conditioning rather than current expected pain relief. This highlights the importance of prior experience on pain relief and offers insight into the variability of placebo effects across individuals.

And?

SECBabe
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.


Did you know that children die in America because these people force their kids into alternative medicine rather than real treatments.
Did you know people in America die because of conventional medicine?


Are you saying that conventional medicine with a solid scientific basis is the same as selling snake oil as hope?

Sure errors can happen with conventional medicine and treatments may not work but there is no hope with snake oil.

If your child dies because you treat them with snake oil rather than real treatment then you are a murderer. If you treat them with snake oil rather than real treatments then you are guilty of abuse.
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jeepers people are obsessive about making sure they let everyone know that something doesn't work.

If it works for a person, it works.


Did you know that children die in America because these people force their kids into alternative medicine rather than real treatments.
Did you know people in America die because of conventional medicine?


Are you saying that conventional medicine with a solid scientific basis is the same as selling snake oil as hope?

Sure errors can happen with conventional medicine and treatments may not work but there is no hope with snake oil.

If your child dies because you treat them with snake oil rather than real treatment then you are a murderer. If you treat them with snake oil rather than real treatments then you are guilty of abuse.
Nope. Not at all.

I think conventional medicine should be used first.

It didn't help my son's teething. The homeopathic tablets did.
Beer Baron
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AG

quote:
analgesia
Lol
30_Days
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AG
I've had acupuncture and dry needling, which is a more "modern" take on acupuncture that is performed by physical therapists, and actually pisses a lot of acupuncturists off.. The acupuncture was more the hippy dippy "mood altering" kind of acupuncture, so no opinion on it's medical benefits.

But dry needling has so far been the form of therapy that had any effect on relieving sever muscle spasms and tension in my lower back.
Woody2006
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AG
The placebo effect works even if you know all that is happening is the placebo effect.

No need for needles to stick you.
Beer Baron
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AG

quote:
The placebo effect works even if you know all that is happening is the placebo effect.
WHERE DO WE GET THESE PLACEBOS???
Tanya 93
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quote:
The placebo effect works even if you know all that is happening is the placebo effect.

No need for needles to stick you.
How does that work with a 7 month old child?
Knife_Party
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People pay tons of money for placebos all the time. Antidepressants and therapy to name a few.
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
quote:
The placebo effect works even if you know all that is happening is the placebo effect.

No need for needles to stick you.
How does that work with a 7 month old child?
A better question to ask is how does a process that defies chemical and biological laws (homeopathy) work with a 7 month old child?
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
quote:
The placebo effect works even if you know all that is happening is the placebo effect.

No need for needles to stick you.
How does that work with a 7 month old child?
A better question to ask is how does a process that defies chemical and biological laws (homeopathy) work with a 7 month old child?
No clue.

But it did when orajel didn't.

Don't use it.
Don't go to it.

But to tell everyone that it doesn't work is just stupid. And no, I am not saying there is science that is studied that proves it. I know what happened when traditional medicine didn't work.

An infant can't be influenced by a placebo.

Claude!
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quote:
My crossfit coach is also my chiropractor, and he recommended a paleo acupuncturist. No harmful metal or plastic needles: only bone shards from farm raised animals.

Is this a free range farm?
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
An infant can't be influenced by a placebo
Why do you say that? Are they influenced by soothing sounds from their mother?
30_Days
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AG
there's no science that proves God either, but that doesn't stop people from throwing money at Him for their health and well-being either.

If an individual wants to use alternative medicine, they should go for it.
Woody2006
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AG
quote:
there's no science that proves God either, but that doesn't stop people from throwing money at Him for their health and well-being either.
The arguments for the necessity of God are far more convincing than the arguments for why homeopathy works.
Tanya 93
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quote:
quote:
An infant can't be influenced by a placebo
Why do you say that? Are they influenced by soothing sounds from their mother?
Oh

So the soothing sounds after the conventional medicine just didn't work?
30_Days
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AG
quote:
quote:
there's no science that proves God either, but that doesn't stop people from throwing money at Him for their health and well-being either.
The arguments for the necessity of God are far more convincing than the arguments for why homeopathy works.

eh. I believe in God, but this argument is flimsy as hell.
Knife_Party
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I've had horrid side effects from medication that

A) aren't listed anywhere on the drug information

B) Were completely unexpected

C) doctors told me shouldn't even be happening


Tylenol does absolutely nothing to relieve pain for me. Only ibuprofen works, and it has to be taken in large doses.


All this is to say those biological and chemical interactions within the human body are not as well understood as most people think. There is a reason why some medications and treatments are completely ineffective for people.
aggiederelict
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Woody, what do you do for work? You a researcher?
 
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